the opposite. Checks are written when the rich and genociders get the voters to vote like they want. By comparison, No one gets paid when we all choose to do the decent thing instead.
So start local with a third party, then. I hear DSA is actually having some luck building up that way, and once you built a local foundation, they actually become viable at higher levels. A third party is never going to just come out of nowhere and win the presidency, but with a foundation under them… Well, people are getting tired of Democrats, and they might be willing to entertain other options.
Plus, if they just get big enough, other parties can actually influence the platforms of the main parties. The corporate parties are never going to give us everything we want, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take what incremental change we can.
Personally I’m not against voting (although I’m against the “support the lesser evil” rhetoric). I just hate that libs constantly downplay political violence (whether it be direct violence against politicians or their supporters or destruction of property) as an available tool that must never be used unless absolutely necessary. That if you do use it, you must distance yourself from leftists, anti-capitalists, Democrats, and basically make it seem like you only did it cause you were bored. Not doing so would hurt us too much.
“Oh if you correctly identify an issue with our current system then you must have organised a proletarian uprising that will be launched as soon as I ask it of you, otherwise your argument is moot.”
More like “You want to discourage people from voting and encourage rebellion because you’re a moronic accelerationist who has no clue what he’s actually suggesting.”
What lib podcast mentioned accelerationism? You guys all mention it now, and you do it wrong by the way. An accelerationist would vote democrat since they are more capable stewards of empire and the accelerationist wants capital to accumulate as quickly as possible.
Seriously! I’m genuinely curious to know. It’s so fucking obvious the way they all started suddenly using it constantly while clearly not knowing what it means.
I have a board game friend who is very into Behind the Bastards and has recently been using accelerationism out of nowhere. Not sure if behind the bastards is the cause for sure though since I don’t listen to it.
Interesting. So aside from proving that you don’t know what accellerationists do or believe and that you literally cannot imagine any way to make a difference other than your quadrennial tilt at the windmills begging the ruling class for better crumbs, was there a point to your comment?
Correctly identifying the issues with a system does not mean you have to have all solutions a disingenuous lazy asshole wants from you immediately.
Being able to deduce that voting for genociders does nothing good does not mean a person has to actively sit at the helm of a militant revolutionairy organisation.
No, the message should be to build a vanguard party that can channel violent sentiment in the direction of class struggle rather than voting liberal under the pretense of antifascism and damage control.
the heart of the issue seems to be the legitimacy that voting gives to a system – participate if you chose do, just do so w the awareness of the fact your participation was more beneficial to the status quo than it was to you.
and, yes, you do need to do more than just vote; but if you lack an understanding of why your increased participate is now necessary you’ll be treading water at best – like the democrats.
there have been people who’ve been in this situation before and wrote down what they did with the benefit hindsight included – if you look at their stuff you’ll find out what you need to do beyond voting.
The system is “self-legitimazing” regardless of how many people choose not to vote. Consider the current president didn’t even get the majority of votes.
Instead of buying into the liberal myth that voting creates legitimacy, look at voting as choosing which boss you are going to fight.
The owner has set up this system where he says you get to choose the boss. Even if you do, at best you get to choose who interprets the owners orders. Spending all your time fighting for one boss or the other or against specifically the boss is the wrong thing to do. The correct thing to do is to fight to get rid of the owner and this system, to create a new system that is truly democratic, that will listen to the workers.
That is certainly not what I am advocating for when I say go vote for who you want to fight against.
The correct thing to do is to fight to get rid of the owner and this system, to create a new system that is truly democratic, that will listen to the workers.
Voting does not prevent you from building dual power.
at best you get to choose who interprets the owners orders.
And that has material consequences. To ignore that is to limit who you are able to work with.
Except in Amerika you’re not voting for who you’re fighting against you’re simply voting for which mask the actual people in power put forth (the good pr nice mask (democrats), the tough and mean mask (republican)). The real boss is not the American president, or Congress, etc but the capitalists behind them who you very specifically get no vote on and to who your vote by design has no tangible material effect on.
Being not Amerikan it is true for me in a way but not in the way you’re implying. You genuinely believe your vote at the Amerikan ballot box has tangible material effects on capitalists interests? That’s a pretty extreme stance that even most liberals would retreat from if pressed.
Any revolution predicated on ignoring the material reality of the masses is doomed to fail.
This is a nonsequitor that doesn’t address anything I said.
It’s only a non-sequitor if you replace what I said about the interests of the masses with the interests of the capitalist class.
I get that it is difficult to both participate in the system while also dismantling it - that is by design. It is also designed to alienate those who participate from those who do not. That is one of the ways the system defends itself.
Say the people who have exactly zero interest in fighting against the Democrats. So are you going to be voting for the Republicans? Or are you giving us advice you would never take yourself
Nah, I’m voting for the working family party or peace and freedom when that is an option. Where i live the national always goes dem so there is no chance of spoiling the vote.
I see. I should have said “vote for where you want to fight; in a concentration camp or in the streets”. I meant it reflects the quality of the fight, not that the fight goes away.
If you hear “voting for the polite fascists is not really better than voting for the loud ones” and take that as “don’t even bother trying”, then you really may as well not bother trying, bcs nothing you were trying was ever going to help, and most of it will just strengthen the fascists.
Please point to the part of the meme / title that encouraged voting for anyone let alone anything else. This is just disenpowerment and pushes the narrative that it’s hopeless to try anything at all under the guise of “liberals bad” (which I don’t necessarily disagree with, but this is training people to give up entirely)
So you really did hear “voting for the polite fascists is not really better than voting for the loud ones” and take that as “don’t even bother trying”.
You, specifically, should absolutely give up and don’t bother trying.
Capitalists must be so relieved that socialist and communist enclaves advocate disengaging from the electoral process, as if an afternoon or less spent voting, two if you vote in a primary, precludes one from otherwise protesting, organizing, or lifting a finger to resist.
Ah yes, more “don’t bother voting” propaganda.
The message should be “you need to do more than just vote”
Do radlibs have a MLM scheme where they get commission for getting people to vote for their cult leaders?
(I mean that would explain why they’re so desparate that they even try to shill voting to their worst enemies, the anti-imperialists)
the opposite. Checks are written when the rich and genociders get the voters to vote like they want. By comparison, No one gets paid when we all choose to do the decent thing instead.
Why would they pay off the voters when they can just pay off the lawmakers? Way cheaper.
So start local with a third party, then. I hear DSA is actually having some luck building up that way, and once you built a local foundation, they actually become viable at higher levels. A third party is never going to just come out of nowhere and win the presidency, but with a foundation under them… Well, people are getting tired of Democrats, and they might be willing to entertain other options.
Plus, if they just get big enough, other parties can actually influence the platforms of the main parties. The corporate parties are never going to give us everything we want, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take what incremental change we can.
The title of the post says voting isn’t enough.
Personally I’m not against voting (although I’m against the “support the lesser evil” rhetoric). I just hate that libs constantly downplay political violence (whether it be direct violence against politicians or their supporters or destruction of property) as an available tool that must never be used unless absolutely necessary. That if you do use it, you must distance yourself from leftists, anti-capitalists, Democrats, and basically make it seem like you only did it cause you were bored. Not doing so would hurt us too much.
voting is pointless and promoting the idea it does anything causes people to do less.
Cool. So you’re armed and ready, right?
“Oh if you correctly identify an issue with our current system then you must have organised a proletarian uprising that will be launched as soon as I ask it of you, otherwise your argument is moot.”
More like “You want to discourage people from voting and encourage rebellion because you’re a moronic accelerationist who has no clue what he’s actually suggesting.”
What lib podcast mentioned accelerationism? You guys all mention it now, and you do it wrong by the way. An accelerationist would vote democrat since they are more capable stewards of empire and the accelerationist wants capital to accumulate as quickly as possible.
Seriously! I’m genuinely curious to know. It’s so fucking obvious the way they all started suddenly using it constantly while clearly not knowing what it means.
I have a board game friend who is very into Behind the Bastards and has recently been using accelerationism out of nowhere. Not sure if behind the bastards is the cause for sure though since I don’t listen to it.
Interesting. So aside from proving that you don’t know what accellerationists do or believe and that you literally cannot imagine any way to make a difference other than your quadrennial tilt at the windmills begging the ruling class for better crumbs, was there a point to your comment?
Removed by mod
Gonna take that as a no
No, that doesn’t fit at all. I think you might have replied to the wrong comment? Or maybe you misread something?
Then explain your position.
Correctly identifying the issues with a system does not mean you have to have all solutions a disingenuous lazy asshole wants from you immediately.
Being able to deduce that voting for genociders does nothing good does not mean a person has to actively sit at the helm of a militant revolutionairy organisation.
We need solutions, not platitudes. Do you have any real solutions or are you going to say some vague bullshit like “organize”?
Yes
Sure you are. Just waiting for someone else to start it, right?
Start what, exactly?
Don’t play dumb.
Tell me
Why should I? So I can keep playing your sealion game?
No, the message should be to build a vanguard party that can channel violent sentiment in the direction of class struggle rather than voting liberal under the pretense of antifascism and damage control.
Not voting for genocide does more good than any amount of volunteer work within the democratic party could ever do.
the heart of the issue seems to be the legitimacy that voting gives to a system – participate if you chose do, just do so w the awareness of the fact your participation was more beneficial to the status quo than it was to you.
and, yes, you do need to do more than just vote; but if you lack an understanding of why your increased participate is now necessary you’ll be treading water at best – like the democrats.
there have been people who’ve been in this situation before and wrote down what they did with the benefit hindsight included – if you look at their stuff you’ll find out what you need to do beyond voting.
So your all proposing we purge every other year. Thats your best idea
“Hey we need to build proletarian organizations to channel political energy in a non-dead end direction”
You:
Thats not what was said. Anymore strawmen
I will hunt you for sport
Incredible bit to talk about “strawmanning” when you wrote this
Give your nose a honk and tell me what you hear
I read this… a lot
https://lemmy.world/comment/26184002
You’re literally sending me a link to the very same strawman
It’s a lot closer to what you said than this:
is to what anyone said.
Uhh its posted in this very thread.
https://lemmy.world/comment/26184002
The system is “self-legitimazing” regardless of how many people choose not to vote. Consider the current president didn’t even get the majority of votes.
Instead of buying into the liberal myth that voting creates legitimacy, look at voting as choosing which boss you are going to fight.
The owner has set up this system where he says you get to choose the boss. Even if you do, at best you get to choose who interprets the owners orders. Spending all your time fighting for one boss or the other or against specifically the boss is the wrong thing to do. The correct thing to do is to fight to get rid of the owner and this system, to create a new system that is truly democratic, that will listen to the workers.
That is certainly not what I am advocating for when I say go vote for who you want to fight against.
Voting does not prevent you from building dual power.
And that has material consequences. To ignore that is to limit who you are able to work with.
Except in Amerika you’re not voting for who you’re fighting against you’re simply voting for which mask the actual people in power put forth (the good pr nice mask (democrats), the tough and mean mask (republican)). The real boss is not the American president, or Congress, etc but the capitalists behind them who you very specifically get no vote on and to who your vote by design has no tangible material effect on.
That may be true for you, but it is not true for others. Any revolution predicated on ignoring the material reality of the masses is doomed to fail.
Being not Amerikan it is true for me in a way but not in the way you’re implying. You genuinely believe your vote at the Amerikan ballot box has tangible material effects on capitalists interests? That’s a pretty extreme stance that even most liberals would retreat from if pressed.
This is a nonsequitor that doesn’t address anything I said.
It’s only a non-sequitor if you replace what I said about the interests of the masses with the interests of the capitalist class.
I get that it is difficult to both participate in the system while also dismantling it - that is by design. It is also designed to alienate those who participate from those who do not. That is one of the ways the system defends itself.
“Vote for who you want to fight against!”
Say the people who have exactly zero interest in fighting against the Democrats. So are you going to be voting for the Republicans? Or are you giving us advice you would never take yourself
Nah, I’m voting for the working family party or peace and freedom when that is an option. Where i live the national always goes dem so there is no chance of spoiling the vote.
So you’re saying if we vote for party1, all party2 members will magically disappear and we don’t have to fight them anymore?
Am I to take your question in good faith? Because I really don’t understand how you made this leap from what I said.
You said “Vote for who you want to fight against”, which may make sense in a videogame, but not irl, so I pointed out the contradiction.
I see. I should have said “vote for where you want to fight; in a concentration camp or in the streets”. I meant it reflects the quality of the fight, not that the fight goes away.
Pushing “don’t even bother trying” is just supporting the fascists.
Both parties are fascist
If you hear “voting for the polite fascists is not really better than voting for the loud ones” and take that as “don’t even bother trying”, then you really may as well not bother trying, bcs nothing you were trying was ever going to help, and most of it will just strengthen the fascists.
Please point to the part of the meme / title that encouraged voting for anyone let alone anything else. This is just disenpowerment and pushes the narrative that it’s hopeless to try anything at all under the guise of “liberals bad” (which I don’t necessarily disagree with, but this is training people to give up entirely)
Learn to read
So you really did hear “voting for the polite fascists is not really better than voting for the loud ones” and take that as “don’t even bother trying”.
You, specifically, should absolutely give up and don’t bother trying.
If you actually thought this the only time you would give this response is when voting was actually occurring.
Capitalists must be so relieved that socialist and communist enclaves advocate disengaging from the electoral process, as if an afternoon or less spent voting, two if you vote in a primary, precludes one from otherwise protesting, organizing, or lifting a finger to resist.
Ah yes, because capitalists just hate it when leftists vote for capitalist parties as a matter of protest lmao
Capitalists hate this one simple trick!