the heart of the issue seems to be the legitimacy that voting gives to a system – participate if you chose do, just do so w the awareness of the fact your participation was more beneficial to the status quo than it was to you.
and, yes, you do need to do more than just vote; but if you lack an understanding of why your increased participate is now necessary you’ll be treading water at best – like the democrats.
there have been people who’ve been in this situation before and wrote down what they did with the benefit hindsight included – if you look at their stuff you’ll find out what you need to do beyond voting.
The system is “self-legitimazing” regardless of how many people choose not to vote. Consider the current president didn’t even get the majority of votes.
Instead of buying into the liberal myth that voting creates legitimacy, look at voting as choosing which boss you are going to fight.
The owner has set up this system where he says you get to choose the boss. Even if you do, at best you get to choose who interprets the owners orders. Spending all your time fighting for one boss or the other or against specifically the boss is the wrong thing to do. The correct thing to do is to fight to get rid of the owner and this system, to create a new system that is truly democratic, that will listen to the workers.
That is certainly not what I am advocating for when I say go vote for who you want to fight against.
The correct thing to do is to fight to get rid of the owner and this system, to create a new system that is truly democratic, that will listen to the workers.
Voting does not prevent you from building dual power.
at best you get to choose who interprets the owners orders.
And that has material consequences. To ignore that is to limit who you are able to work with.
Except in Amerika you’re not voting for who you’re fighting against you’re simply voting for which mask the actual people in power put forth (the good pr nice mask (democrats), the tough and mean mask (republican)). The real boss is not the American president, or Congress, etc but the capitalists behind them who you very specifically get no vote on and to who your vote by design has no tangible material effect on.
Being not Amerikan it is true for me in a way but not in the way you’re implying. You genuinely believe your vote at the Amerikan ballot box has tangible material effects on capitalists interests? That’s a pretty extreme stance that even most liberals would retreat from if pressed.
Any revolution predicated on ignoring the material reality of the masses is doomed to fail.
This is a nonsequitor that doesn’t address anything I said.
It’s only a non-sequitor if you replace what I said about the interests of the masses with the interests of the capitalist class.
I get that it is difficult to both participate in the system while also dismantling it - that is by design. It is also designed to alienate those who participate from those who do not. That is one of the ways the system defends itself.
No it remains a nonsequitor as pointing out voting in America is a charade over choosing which mask capital wears as opposed to having any material effect on who is in power (the boss which needs fighting) has nothing to do with being detached from the needs of the masses.
Say the people who have exactly zero interest in fighting against the Democrats. So are you going to be voting for the Republicans? Or are you giving us advice you would never take yourself
Nah, I’m voting for the working family party or peace and freedom when that is an option. Where i live the national always goes dem so there is no chance of spoiling the vote.
I see. I should have said “vote for where you want to fight; in a concentration camp or in the streets”. I meant it reflects the quality of the fight, not that the fight goes away.
If you hear “voting for the polite fascists is not really better than voting for the loud ones” and take that as “don’t even bother trying”, then you really may as well not bother trying, bcs nothing you were trying was ever going to help, and most of it will just strengthen the fascists.
Please point to the part of the meme / title that encouraged voting for anyone let alone anything else. This is just disenpowerment and pushes the narrative that it’s hopeless to try anything at all under the guise of “liberals bad” (which I don’t necessarily disagree with, but this is training people to give up entirely)
So you really did hear “voting for the polite fascists is not really better than voting for the loud ones” and take that as “don’t even bother trying”.
You, specifically, should absolutely give up and don’t bother trying.
the heart of the issue seems to be the legitimacy that voting gives to a system – participate if you chose do, just do so w the awareness of the fact your participation was more beneficial to the status quo than it was to you.
and, yes, you do need to do more than just vote; but if you lack an understanding of why your increased participate is now necessary you’ll be treading water at best – like the democrats.
there have been people who’ve been in this situation before and wrote down what they did with the benefit hindsight included – if you look at their stuff you’ll find out what you need to do beyond voting.
So your all proposing we purge every other year. Thats your best idea
“Hey we need to build proletarian organizations to channel political energy in a non-dead end direction”
You:
Thats not what was said. Anymore strawmen
I will hunt you for sport
Incredible bit to talk about “strawmanning” when you wrote this
Give your nose a honk and tell me what you hear
I read this… a lot
https://lemmy.world/comment/26184002
You’re literally sending me a link to the very same strawman
It’s a lot closer to what you said than this:
is to what anyone said.
Uhh its posted in this very thread.
https://lemmy.world/comment/26184002
The system is “self-legitimazing” regardless of how many people choose not to vote. Consider the current president didn’t even get the majority of votes.
Instead of buying into the liberal myth that voting creates legitimacy, look at voting as choosing which boss you are going to fight.
The owner has set up this system where he says you get to choose the boss. Even if you do, at best you get to choose who interprets the owners orders. Spending all your time fighting for one boss or the other or against specifically the boss is the wrong thing to do. The correct thing to do is to fight to get rid of the owner and this system, to create a new system that is truly democratic, that will listen to the workers.
That is certainly not what I am advocating for when I say go vote for who you want to fight against.
Voting does not prevent you from building dual power.
And that has material consequences. To ignore that is to limit who you are able to work with.
Except in Amerika you’re not voting for who you’re fighting against you’re simply voting for which mask the actual people in power put forth (the good pr nice mask (democrats), the tough and mean mask (republican)). The real boss is not the American president, or Congress, etc but the capitalists behind them who you very specifically get no vote on and to who your vote by design has no tangible material effect on.
That may be true for you, but it is not true for others. Any revolution predicated on ignoring the material reality of the masses is doomed to fail.
Being not Amerikan it is true for me in a way but not in the way you’re implying. You genuinely believe your vote at the Amerikan ballot box has tangible material effects on capitalists interests? That’s a pretty extreme stance that even most liberals would retreat from if pressed.
This is a nonsequitor that doesn’t address anything I said.
It’s only a non-sequitor if you replace what I said about the interests of the masses with the interests of the capitalist class.
I get that it is difficult to both participate in the system while also dismantling it - that is by design. It is also designed to alienate those who participate from those who do not. That is one of the ways the system defends itself.
No it remains a nonsequitor as pointing out voting in America is a charade over choosing which mask capital wears as opposed to having any material effect on who is in power (the boss which needs fighting) has nothing to do with being detached from the needs of the masses.
“Vote for who you want to fight against!”
Say the people who have exactly zero interest in fighting against the Democrats. So are you going to be voting for the Republicans? Or are you giving us advice you would never take yourself
Nah, I’m voting for the working family party or peace and freedom when that is an option. Where i live the national always goes dem so there is no chance of spoiling the vote.
So you’re saying if we vote for party1, all party2 members will magically disappear and we don’t have to fight them anymore?
Am I to take your question in good faith? Because I really don’t understand how you made this leap from what I said.
You said “Vote for who you want to fight against”, which may make sense in a videogame, but not irl, so I pointed out the contradiction.
I see. I should have said “vote for where you want to fight; in a concentration camp or in the streets”. I meant it reflects the quality of the fight, not that the fight goes away.
You can’t vote for where you want to fight.
Pushing “don’t even bother trying” is just supporting the fascists.
Both parties are fascist
If you hear “voting for the polite fascists is not really better than voting for the loud ones” and take that as “don’t even bother trying”, then you really may as well not bother trying, bcs nothing you were trying was ever going to help, and most of it will just strengthen the fascists.
Please point to the part of the meme / title that encouraged voting for anyone let alone anything else. This is just disenpowerment and pushes the narrative that it’s hopeless to try anything at all under the guise of “liberals bad” (which I don’t necessarily disagree with, but this is training people to give up entirely)
Learn to read
So you really did hear “voting for the polite fascists is not really better than voting for the loud ones” and take that as “don’t even bother trying”.
You, specifically, should absolutely give up and don’t bother trying.