Shit-libs talking about the sanctity and “conflict-of-interest” of “state-news” but willingly eats up the slop from the State Department about China and the litany of deposed states that function worse than they did after intervention like Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq…list goes on. They’ll gargle up every headline from BBC, NBC, CNN, etc with their “anonymous sources” “Undisclosed Pentagon Official” or the litany of intelligence agents in their midst. https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/document/cia-rdp91-00901r000500050029-0 This was just from the 60s-70s. Did they suddenly stop?
Acknowledging that you’d rather trust the news of a foreign state, even if it’s directly backed by them over the captured news agencies of the west who controls the global empire of commerce, trade with military bases globally and interventions to put the British Empire to shame gets met with “WhAtAbOuTiSm” and crying about Pootin as if he’s directly bankrolling every person on our instance.
When Ukraine gets inevitably destroyed, you’ll have half of you decrying that the war ever happened and the other half saying we could have done more but it wasn’t the right time. A liberal is against every war except the current one.
Anyways, copypasta time:
я не из калининграда@lemmy.ml (not a native english speaker, I believe) i do not support the current administrations internal actions, as capitalism has brought nothing but injustice, suffering, poverty, crime and corruption. but i absolutely do support its foreign policy, especially regarding the ukrainian question. the putin government has evolved to become one of the most effective anti-imperialist forces on the planet and even if you ignore the terrible nature of the terrorist zelensky-regime one has to be grateful to our military for fighting the biggest enemy of mankind, america.
so lets detail the happenings that led to the current situation:
(it may be important to note that the current russian administration pushes a slightly different narrative due to sadly being a right wing state)
banderite collaborators parading in front of nazi officers the banderites (see picture), members of the fascist “organization of ukrainian nationalists” led by stepan andreyevich bandera were a gang of rapists and murderers who collaborated with the invading german hordes and assisted them by conducting acts of terror against civilians. It is important to note that popular support for them was close to zero. after the victory of the heroic red army, the majority of those parasites fled to the west, predominantly to canada. they received funding from american and british intelligence agencies, which were more than happy to welcome “former” nazis into their own anti-communist ranks. another subset of the banderites remained in the ukrainian ssr and conducted a campaign of terror and sabotage against the civilian population. their bloody deeds were supported by the cia and its european puppet agencies through the so called “operation aerodynamic”.
referendum on the preservation of the ussr. its results were ignored by the anti-communists
After the illegal and undemocratic dissolution of the ussr, the leaders of those fascist gangs were glorified by the ukrainian far-right, with support from the cia. efforts to further their “rehabilitation” were primarily directed by nazi expatriates in canada. outlets such as voice of america portrayed them as “heroes”. (aerodynamic, some of these were manufactured in the U.S under Operation Mockingbird like a lot of U.S state dept. bullshit)
election before cia intervention. this division between neonazi northwest and pro-russian southeast is visible to this day
in 2004, the west sabotaged the ukrainian presidential elections and installed their puppet, viktor andreyevich yushchenko, through a color revolution. he was a terrible leader, not only dismantling the remaining aspects of the ukrainian economy and managing to make life even more miserable than it already was, but also granting “hero of ukraine” status to banderite leaders and holocaust perpetrators stepan bandera and roman iosifovich shukhevich.
(not adding picture of 2014 ukrainian nazis since you have already said you believe in that)
in 2014, america and the west orchestrated another coup, this time not even bothering to hide the involvement of neo-nazis. the new regime perpetrated unspeakable atrocities against the russian population, whom it consideres “subhuman,” as well as against ukrainian anti-fascists. in odessa alone, 39 people were burned alive in the local trade union building.
those developments led to the revolution in the predominantly russian populated donbass-area and the creation off the donetsk and lugansk peoples republics, as well as the referendum in crimea that led to the peninsula finally rejoining russia. from 2014 till 2022 the majority of humanitarian aid to the donbass republics came from the cprf.
the reason for the smo is the ukrainian western-aligned nazi regime violating the minsk accords by refusing to demilitarize, trying to join the fascist nato-block and murdering russian civilians for years on end. the russian government showed itself extremely lenient, to lenient even, as any sensible politician would have staged a military intervention much earlier. if you need further proof for the tyrannical nature of the kievan regime just look at the fact that zelenskiy has banned all opposition parties in his country, refuses to hold elections and effectively rules as a military dictator. furthermore he has outlawed the russian language, made any negotiation with the russian state illegal and is currently selling whatever is left of his country to the highest bidder. combine all this with the fact that the west and its puppets need to always be opposed due to them being a cancer of humanity and you’ll get a pretty good picture of why to support the russian military.
From Davel: No. In a few more words, support for Russia (not Putin, as historical materialists don’t subscribe to great man theory) is only a partial, temporary, tactical one, in the context of imperialist liberation. Russia is still a capitalist state, though, so it’s a two stage strategy: first liberate colonized bourgeois states from colonizer states, and second revolution within those liberated bourgeois states.
Russia is an interesting case: it has already liberated itself from the post-Soviet “shock therapy” neocolonizers. This occurred during Putin’s administration, which is why he is especially hated by the US. So now the support for Russia is in the context of keeping the colonizers from recolonizing it, and supporting Russia to the extent that it helps other states liberate themselves. But Russia isn’t trying to “liberate” Ukraine, at least not all of Ukraine. It’s trying to resolve the genocidal attacks on the people of the Donbas, and it’s trying to resolve the imperialist military expansion at its border.
Also, Ukraine really does have a fascism problem and has for a long time, and the coup government has materially supported it.
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: ‘I want to bring up a warrior’: Ukraine’s far-right children’s camp – video
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- openDemocracy, 2019: Why Ukraine’s new language law will have long-term consequences
- Jacobin, 2022: A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War
- Consortium News, 2022: Evidence of US-Backed Coup in Kiev
- Al Jazeera, 2022: Why did Ukraine suspend 11 ‘pro-Russia’ parties?
- History of Fascism in Ukraine: Part I, Part II, [Part III](https://libya360.wordpress.com/2023/09/23/history-of-fascism-in-ukraine-part-iii
i bet they’ve already selected zelensky’s replacement.
Juan Guaidó: PUT ME IN, COACH
Nah, Zelensky hasn’t denied something Trump requested of him, he’s carrying out the plan. The USA wants out optically, but they want the war to continue, with EU nations managing it. They couldn’t be happier with him.
And the APC he’ll get domed in
Anything on this from a more trustworthy news source?
We’re on .ml, what do you expect?
Haha yea, because western “media” is SO much more trustworthy 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Isn’t RT a Russian state controlled news source?
And BBC is a british state controlled source. state-owned ≠ untrustworthy, at least not more untrustworthy than private media.
BBC is actually not state controlled; it is an independent corporation. Though I agree with your sentiment, that a state controlled news source such as RT is untrustworthy.
Poor naive child. Who do you think appoints the board of governors?
Yes it is 100% controlled by the Russian government. It is not a good news source unless you want to read what Putin wants you to read.
RT was literally founded by the government of the invading army.
First ha yea “invading army” abso has nothing to do with trying to stop further NATO expansionism for the US or the fact that the US overthrew Ukraine’s legit elected gov in 2014 for a puppet gov. 2nd, western “news” outlets gets their narratives from the CIA or other US agencies
Walk me through how Russia’s army taking territory from Ukraine isn’t invading. Explain, as you would to a child.
If Trump started bombing California, and California called for secession and asked Mexico for aid, and Mexico did so, would Mexico be invading?
Yes.
It would also be an invasion if America managed to get rid of The Idiot as a blatantly corrupt foreign-aligned fascist, and then Canada decided they’d quite like Maine.
If your roommate starts threatening you with a knife and the cops come in after you called them to defuse the situation are the cops doing a home invasion?
Of course I should listen to news about Zelensky from Russia Today News… Not surprised that this conflict of interest was posted to .ml
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hay didja kno putin is like literally genociding like a million uyghurs now. betcha never heard that 1 b4 huh
wait what do you mean i’m banned???
Every time.
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I love how you trolls use this as some gotcha.
Fifteen people are mad they have the reputation they’ve proudly demonstrated.
Mods included, now.
Don’t know much about instances (I’m just a benighted .ca user) but I suppose I should work out how to self defederate from this one if this is the usual.
Thanks!
Ur just parroting what western “media” wants you to. RT doesn’t cave to western narratives so the recourse for western “media” is to slander it as “propaganda”
just to putin’s narratives
Are they mre factual than western narratives? Yes. Everything is more factual than western narratives, which get made up by zenz&co
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If reality had western bias then Ukraine would’ve won the war by now.
Show me you don’t read without telling me so.
Unlike you, not only do I read western media extensively, I also have reading comprehension to understand what it’s been saying.
Oddly enough, saying you comprehend different from actual comprehension.
Most Western media has been “well, Ukraine’s fucked.” “Long term, can Ukraine survive this war?”
Are you getting confused between individual battlefield/operational success versus the strategic reality?
For three whole years western media promised that Russia was on the verge of collapse both militarily and economically. They said that Russia is running out of weapons, that Russian troops fight with shovels, that Russian economy is in shambles. Turns out that literally all of it was complete and utter bullshit. Now we’re finally entering the stages where it’s no longer possible to pretend that the west can possibly win the war, and the real world is finally starting to slowly seep through the walls of the media bubble western media created.
The only one deeply confused here is you apparently.
Some people are never worth the time. Block and breathe easy.
Good words to remember!
On this one, it’s a little fun to kinda bully someone being a silly Billy. But I’ve got a note on him so if I encounter in the wild, I just ignore, giggle and move on.
Every large state actor uses media as a propaganda tool, I‘m sure you know that. Blocking yourself to only get fed one version is … well, how about you build some media literacy and sharpen your critical thinking skills, instead. That way you‘ll be able to really decide for yourself. How long did western media parrot IDF propaganda? Oh, they still do? Damn ol‘ reality!
Right, so you’d ignore the NYT on Isreal. Yeah? Or when Al Jazeera defends Qatar.
Why don’t you feel the same way about Russia Today… on Russia?
Reaching a conclusion is not a failure of critical thinking skills; it’s what they’re for. You’re not just allowed to recognize consistent bullshit - you’re expected to.
If you really don’t understand the difference between a news organization with which you disagree and a state actor in all but name, that’s on you.
It’s a state actor in name.
This feels like one of my trailer park boys exchanges:
Julian: Ricky, do you know how stupid you sound right now?
Ricky: Yes I do!
Thanks for the giggles.
I was especially talking about blocking lemmy instances, but wasn‘t very clear on that. I‘m with you. Their conclusion was to block the goof‘s instance. By your logic then, they‘d have to stop consuming media period.
Multiple points of view are useful, the Kremlin’s mouthpiece is not. If you practiced that media literacy you’re talking about, you’d understand the difference.
And the blocking myself is to be polite so I don’t keep scolding you goofs for choosing the dumbest possible source of “information.”
Believe me, I know how to find propoganda like RT or trump’s truth social feed, there’s just no value to be gained from them.
Yes yes, I wasn‘t very clear here. I didn‘t argue for RT, idgaf about them. I‘m talking about blocking lemmy instances, because of ideologic dissonances. GL, fellow goof.
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Another lib down!
Last week I kicked my neighbor’s door open, walked into the living room, and sat down on the floor with a bunch of bags of my stuff.
They got into a fight with me because they are saying I’m trespassing and a bunch of other crap. They are demanding that I leave their house after cleaning up my mess and taking my stuff back home.
I generously offered that I could stay permanently in the living room and they could keep the rest of the house, but they are refusing my peace deal! Don’t they realize that I could easily have taken over the whole downstairs, even the whole house? Besides, before their house was built, I used to walk through that empty lot all the time!
I can’t believe they want to keep fighting and making a worse mess of the living room, so illogical!
This is literally what happens in the West Bank
Almost as if two things can be bad at the same time
One of the dumbest fucking things liberals say. Has zero value rhetorically and just shows your ass at being morally vacuous
I want to add: they almost never give a fuck about the other thing. They only use argument when they know they’ve been caught being a hypocrite/cleanly not giving af about something far worse.
I hate almost as much as when they try to equate to cheap non-issues with crimes against humanity with the argument “it’s not a competition, both things are bad.”
Nobody thinks like that. We have limited time and resources and so we have to triage problems.
And some people’s problems are so much worse than others.
You’re really going to compare pedophiliac EuroAnglo-zionazi settler-colonialism, open-air concentration camps, wholesale murder and targeting of children, women and unarmed men, wholesale sexual violence (whether on the living or dead), land desecration, cultural erasure, etc… to a war on a country that still has active clubs and bars?
In fairness, they didn’t. The person they replied to did.
No you fucking moron and holocaust denier, I didn’t. I did the exact opposite in fact.
When someone who is not experiencing a genocide tries to wrap themselves in the victimhood of people actually being genocided, as you and your friend are, you are holocaust deniers because you’re diminishing the meaning of the word genocide by associating it with your cause.
Fascists like your friend and the nazis running Ukraine, like all fascists, have zero shame saying literally fucking anything. And in addition, any offense against a fascist is met with shrieking rage and indignance. So of course they say what Russia is doing is a genocide. They are fascists and they have no shame. Are you a fascist? Or are you just a credulous liberal that repeats what fascists say and goes along with them in every situation?
Your opinion on the situation in Ukraine put aside for a moment:
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The person you replied to made an allegory about what is happening in Ukraine.
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You said that is literally what is happening in Gaza.
You drew a direct line from a comment about Ukraine to being about Gaza, too.
Had your comment been something like “lol, no, Ukraine’s full of Nazis. This is literally what’s happening in Gaza though” then it would not have been possible to point to you as drawing the parallel. I do not agree with the parallel, belastend is not my “friend”, and I’d appreciate if you stopped fighting the ghostly liberal you mistook me for.
Moron and holocaust denier, good lord.
I’ll make my stance perfectly fucking clear: nobody should be persecuted or killed en masse, nobody should be invaded, nobody should be marginalised, made less than, othered, abused, tortured, bullied, made a victim of hate, made to live a life in suffering.
I’m not sure what your political stance is, frankly idc, but based on that last sentiment it steers too close to anti-warism, so I’ll just give you the benefit of the doubt this one time, maybe you’ll see what we see:
My meaning from my reply is that monolithizing the two issues with statements like “Both can be bad at the same time, actually!” is drawing a comparison, which is not only tone-deaf, but completely misses the point that @AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml made: that entire original comment of OP’s directly applies to Palestinians in Palestine. And it does, it absolutely does, and there’s no denying it does.
The difference here is in the direct applicability of things, sweeping statements like “both bad” especially in the context of Palestine only serve to trivialize issues, it doesn’t offer any specific insight.
It also helps their case that one’s a literal ongoing genocide on an indigenous population while having already been subjugated to 70+ years of ethnic cleansing as a result of Euro-Anglo settler-colonialism (which continues to this day) and the other’s a war the West kicked a hornet’s nest for that started in 2022 between bougies… There’s nothing wrong with sympathizing with the latter, there’s just something wrong with flattening multi-dimensional degrees of suffering and one degree of suffering all into one degree, as if they were on an even-playing field, so to speak. The other difference here is that you get, at best, tone-policed or at worst, silenced and/or jailed, for publicly sympathizing for the former.
And hey: they did not need to preface that Ukraine’s full of Nazis or something to that effect, I seriously don’t see how their point would be “more valid”, even if the prefacing statement was true. Needlessly tone policing like this, a tactic used by libs extensively to derail and dissuade anyone from basically saying anything, isn’t really okay at all…
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Fucking yankees
History began in February of 2022
This is… Not accurate. And I’m not an expert on this war.
Good. Fuck Trump, and fuck Russia.
Should Ukraine fight to the last Ukrainian? The war is increasingly unpopular, and it doesn’t appear that there’s an ace up Ukraine’s sleeve to turn the tides. The longer the war rages on, the more Ukrainians and Russians die, and the worse Ukraine’s bargaining power becomes.
If you were in charge of Ukraine right now, what would you do?
When Russia first attacked, everyone thought they would roll over Ukraine in days or weeks… Are you sure a drawn out war isn’t worse for Russia then it is for Ukraine? Every day Ukraine is showing the world that Russia can’t push them around, that’s important when dealing with bullies.
They should fight until they decide not to fight, I don’t understand why anyone who isn’t Ukrainian thinks they get a say in that decision.
Nobody thought Russia would win in days or weeks, the western framing has been that that was the plan but it failed, but the Russian framing has not been that way. Further, yes, a drawn out war is absolutely worse for Ukraine, Ukraine has been steadily losing ground, the war is increasingly unpopular, and Russia is outproducing NATO in millitary equipment.
Showing brave defiance doesn’t matter at all if it costs you far more lives for an increasingly unpopular war, at some point you have to circle around to reality and understand that Russia isn’t going to stop until the 4 oblasts are theirs, Kiev stops oppressing ethnic Russians, and Ukraine promises NATO neutrality.
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I’m not a keyboard warrior, lol. I want the war to end, as quickly as possible, with the fewest lives lost as possible. My stance is similar to the Party for Socialism and Liberation’s statement as well as Freedom Road Socialist Organization’s statement. I’m a communist.
At the end of the day, Russia wants the 4 oblasts, all 4 of which are majority ethnically Russian and want to join Russia. Russia wants Ukrainian neutrality with NATO, because NATO is an alliance of imperialist nations that encircle those that maintain more control over their markets in order to scare them into letting in foreign capital. Russia also wants Ukraine to stop oppressing ethnic Russians. These are not outlandish desires. Further, Russia has the physical means to pursue these aims millitarily, Ukraine doesn’t have the means to stop them.
Ultimately, a desire to perpetuate the war is a desire to sacrifice more Ukrainians and Russians for what will ultimately be the same end result, for the only “benefit” to the west being more control of Ukrainian resources (the rare Earth deals) as well as more damage to Russia, all at the expense of Ukrainian lives. I don’t see what this accomplishes.
He only wants Poland guys, if we give him Poland then Germany will stop being aggressive!
Why do you think countries choose to go to war? Is it just vibes? An amorphous desire to grab land? Why the 4 oblasts in particular? Why would Russia want to expand beyond them? I gave a clear and coherent summary of events and motives, and you respond with a non-sequitor devoid of analysis. Are you capable of backing up your hypothesis, or is this just a distraction for you to avoid having to engage critically?
You don’t want the war to end as quickly as possible, you want Russia to gain territory as quickly as possible. Big difference.
I think if the areas that seceded from Ukraine that are majority ethnically Russian, that have been shelled and slaughtered by Kiev for a decade, want to join Russia, then that’s okay. That isn’t in conflict with wanting the war to end as quickly as possible, Russia has the means to pursue that aim millitarily whether Kiev agrees to it or not. Russia has no reason to expand beyond the oblasts at this point, it isn’t in this war for extraction, so it seems acceptable to me.
Look to my allies for help. Ukraine isn’t in the wrong for defending itself. Russia is the bad guy here.
Isn’t that what NATO is already doing? What do you forsee changing?
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But you don’t actually think that’s likely, do you? So you are advocating that Ukraine wipes themselves out even though at this point support for continuing the war is falling dramatically? To the last Ukrainian, then?
“Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it flows”
The empire demands bloodsport.
Zelensky knows he’s out as soon as the war ends. He’s going to try to prolong it indefinitely
State news apparatus of one of the belligerents blames leader of the country they invaded for “rejecting peace.”
From a negotiation that country wasn’t invited to.
Who are the other belligerents?
Usa, britain, canada
Ukraine.
Why should he accept them?
What, practically speaking, is a viable alternative?
May I introduce you to the concept of “to the last Ukrainian”? :)
Hey you haven’t forgotten that there are people dying over this, have you?
Putin could stop the war at any second. If the terms are as bad as they are dictated by trump, you should definitely not accept them.
And leave the separatists to be genocided? The ukronazis have turned off the water supply to the separatist parts a while ago, the oppression they’d do if russia didn’t fight them is documented between 2014 and 2022.
Are they worse than the terms you’re going to get in another 6 months?
Has your position gotten better in the last 6 months?
They are worse than the terms they got after Trump met with EU Heads. So yes, you should not accept the terms Trump shat out his ass directly after talking to Putin.
One of the main points is to get a ceasefire first.
Ukraine’s bargaining position gets worse the longer the war drags on. Unless there’s genuine reason to believe the tides will change in a lasting way, Ukraine’s best time to bargain is today, and every day following will be worse. Russia will not stop until they have the 4 oblasts, Ukraine stops oppressing ethnic Russians in their territory, and Russia has certification of Ukraine’s neutrality to NATO. These are the terms they have regularly re-affirmed, Ukraine can either continue to push an increasingly unpopular war until this happens anyways, try to bargain now so as to force concessions, or hope for a miracle and a changing of the tides.
Refusing some terms and proposing others is the definition of bargaining.
These terms would give Ukraine no assurance in the future of not being invaded. They gave up their nukes once for that promise, now they will have to give up territory. How much, that is part of the negotiations.
Ukraine isn’t in a position to repeatedly turn down all of Russia’s demands. Russia has the means to continue pursuing its goals, Ukraine does not. Ukraine broke both Minsk agreements and admitted to never intending on following them, Russia did not.
The reality of the situation is that Russia doesn’t have a reason to invade Ukraine in the future if their terms are met, namely the 4 oblasts, NATO neutrality, and cessation of Kiev’s oppressing ethnic Russians. People don’t go to war without reason, and unless Ukraine has an ace up their sleeves, every day is more dead Ukrainians, Russians, and more favorable conditions for Russia.
Zelensky could end it at any second too
End the war or something idk
Yeah, if he did, it might be necessary to hold elections even. And that would just be terrible!
Self preservation would be one motivation. .
The 2019 RAND report gameplan for this conflict makes it clear that, if the worst case scenario happens and Russia gets stronger over the course of the conflict rather than being depleted as intended, an offramp should be found immediately to minimize Russian gains. Ukraine is losing the war, and supplies are now limited to a dripfeed. Their suzerain is stating pretty clearly that they expect compliance. – Logically, in line with US think-tanks, the next step is to assassinate Zelensky and find someone more conciliatory.
Well they called it peace, so it’s totally different from surrender. There’s no way Russia would ignore the treaty, amass forces at the border, and attempt a push straight for the capitol… again.
Why would they do that? Wouldn’t it be better to amass forces on the eastern border, travel over the bering strait, use the highways, and push for the white house?
