Should Ukraine fight to the last Ukrainian? The war is increasingly unpopular, and it doesn’t appear that there’s an ace up Ukraine’s sleeve to turn the tides. The longer the war rages on, the more Ukrainians and Russians die, and the worse Ukraine’s bargaining power becomes.
If you were in charge of Ukraine right now, what would you do?
When Russia first attacked, everyone thought they would roll over Ukraine in days or weeks… Are you sure a drawn out war isn’t worse for Russia then it is for Ukraine? Every day Ukraine is showing the world that Russia can’t push them around, that’s important when dealing with bullies.
They should fight until they decide not to fight, I don’t understand why anyone who isn’t Ukrainian thinks they get a say in that decision.
Nobody thought Russia would win in days or weeks, the western framing has been that that was the plan but it failed, but the Russian framing has not been that way. Further, yes, a drawn out war is absolutely worse for Ukraine, Ukraine has been steadily losing ground, the war is increasingly unpopular, and Russia is outproducing NATO in millitary equipment.
Showing brave defiance doesn’t matter at all if it costs you far more lives for an increasingly unpopular war, at some point you have to circle around to reality and understand that Russia isn’t going to stop until the 4 oblasts are theirs, Kiev stops oppressing ethnic Russians, and Ukraine promises NATO neutrality.
At the end of the day, Russia wants the 4 oblasts, all 4 of which are majority ethnically Russian and want to join Russia. Russia wants Ukrainian neutrality with NATO, because NATO is an alliance of imperialist nations that encircle those that maintain more control over their markets in order to scare them into letting in foreign capital. Russia also wants Ukraine to stop oppressing ethnic Russians. These are not outlandish desires. Further, Russia has the physical means to pursue these aims millitarily, Ukraine doesn’t have the means to stop them.
Ultimately, a desire to perpetuate the war is a desire to sacrifice more Ukrainians and Russians for what will ultimately be the same end result, for the only “benefit” to the west being more control of Ukrainian resources (the rare Earth deals) as well as more damage to Russia, all at the expense of Ukrainian lives. I don’t see what this accomplishes.
Why do you think countries choose to go to war? Is it just vibes? An amorphous desire to grab land? Why the 4 oblasts in particular? Why would Russia want to expand beyond them? I gave a clear and coherent summary of events and motives, and you respond with a non-sequitor devoid of analysis. Are you capable of backing up your hypothesis, or is this just a distraction for you to avoid having to engage critically?
“Anti-warism” is Marvel-level thinking. The Union was correct in invading the Confederacy and freeing the slaves. Millitant intervention is justifiable if the reasoning is correct, if you refuse to analyze anything and just reflexively take the side of the invaded in any and all circumstances, you are powerless to understand why events happen and which way they will flow.
Chiefly, you again stated that Russia is going to “keep inventing reasons to invade their neighbors.” Why do you believe this is true? The stated reasons, wanting NATO neutrality in Ukraine and to protect the ethnic Russians in the Donbass region that Kiev was slaughtering for trying to secede after the Euromaidan coup, tracks perfectly with Russia’s stance on NATO encirclement all the way back when NATO was founded as an anti-communist coalition against the USSR.
Hitler invaded Poland as a part of Lebensraum. Nazi Germany had a millitant structuring of society. Capital was in crisis, and post World War I, the inter-ally debts that were repaid to the US were pushed onto Germany in the form of reparations for damages during World War I, squeezing the economy and leaving Germany with little to no colonies, and the allies with all of them. As the loser of an inter-imperialist war while still requiring imperialism for capital to function, Hilter and the Nazis turned towards Europe. Nazi Germany was economically compelled for conquest, and promised conquest of a much larger portion of Europe publicly and repeatedly.
The Russian Federation, on the other hand, is what came after the dissolition of the Soviet Union. Russia has had a production-focused economy since the early 1900s, and hasn’t been imperialist since the Tsar. Russia does not have the huge amounts of financial capital necessary to compel imperialism into action, what it seeks from the Russo-Ukrainian War is a barrier to prevent full-scale land invasion from NATO through Ukraine. It doesn’t need conquest to sustain its economy, it doesn’t run on export of capital.
The fact that you choose to write fanfiction, and argue against analysis and in favor of blindness, is the epitome of applying a Marvel-like understanding of the world to complex international politics, and the effect of which justifies your desire for Ukrainians to continue fighting a losing war they do not have a wish to fight any longer. You just want bloodsport.
I think if the areas that seceded from Ukraine that are majority ethnically Russian, that have been shelled and slaughtered by Kiev for a decade, want to join Russia, then that’s okay. That isn’t in conflict with wanting the war to end as quickly as possible, Russia has the means to pursue that aim millitarily whether Kiev agrees to it or not. Russia has no reason to expand beyond the oblasts at this point, it isn’t in this war for extraction, so it seems acceptable to me.
Historically, the 4 oblasts were Russian. That’s why the majority living there are ethnically Russian, they speak Russian as their primary language. They have ties to the land. It wasn’t until Lenin gave Ukraine in 1922 the oblasts that these territories came under Ukrainian jurisdiction, but at a national level this area is traditionally, culturally, and ethnically Russian. That’s why they seceded from Ukraine, and later asked to be annexed. It’s the land of their ancestors, and their ancestors were Russian.
But you don’t actually think that’s likely, do you? So you are advocating that Ukraine wipes themselves out even though at this point support for continuing the war is falling dramatically? To the last Ukrainian, then?
Should Ukraine fight to the last Ukrainian? The war is increasingly unpopular, and it doesn’t appear that there’s an ace up Ukraine’s sleeve to turn the tides. The longer the war rages on, the more Ukrainians and Russians die, and the worse Ukraine’s bargaining power becomes.
If you were in charge of Ukraine right now, what would you do?
When Russia first attacked, everyone thought they would roll over Ukraine in days or weeks… Are you sure a drawn out war isn’t worse for Russia then it is for Ukraine? Every day Ukraine is showing the world that Russia can’t push them around, that’s important when dealing with bullies.
They should fight until they decide not to fight, I don’t understand why anyone who isn’t Ukrainian thinks they get a say in that decision.
Nobody thought Russia would win in days or weeks, the western framing has been that that was the plan but it failed, but the Russian framing has not been that way. Further, yes, a drawn out war is absolutely worse for Ukraine, Ukraine has been steadily losing ground, the war is increasingly unpopular, and Russia is outproducing NATO in millitary equipment.
Showing brave defiance doesn’t matter at all if it costs you far more lives for an increasingly unpopular war, at some point you have to circle around to reality and understand that Russia isn’t going to stop until the 4 oblasts are theirs, Kiev stops oppressing ethnic Russians, and Ukraine promises NATO neutrality.
Removed by mod
I’m not a keyboard warrior, lol. I want the war to end, as quickly as possible, with the fewest lives lost as possible. My stance is similar to the Party for Socialism and Liberation’s statement as well as Freedom Road Socialist Organization’s statement. I’m a communist.
At the end of the day, Russia wants the 4 oblasts, all 4 of which are majority ethnically Russian and want to join Russia. Russia wants Ukrainian neutrality with NATO, because NATO is an alliance of imperialist nations that encircle those that maintain more control over their markets in order to scare them into letting in foreign capital. Russia also wants Ukraine to stop oppressing ethnic Russians. These are not outlandish desires. Further, Russia has the physical means to pursue these aims millitarily, Ukraine doesn’t have the means to stop them.
Ultimately, a desire to perpetuate the war is a desire to sacrifice more Ukrainians and Russians for what will ultimately be the same end result, for the only “benefit” to the west being more control of Ukrainian resources (the rare Earth deals) as well as more damage to Russia, all at the expense of Ukrainian lives. I don’t see what this accomplishes.
He only wants Poland guys, if we give him Poland then Germany will stop being aggressive!
Why do you think countries choose to go to war? Is it just vibes? An amorphous desire to grab land? Why the 4 oblasts in particular? Why would Russia want to expand beyond them? I gave a clear and coherent summary of events and motives, and you respond with a non-sequitor devoid of analysis. Are you capable of backing up your hypothesis, or is this just a distraction for you to avoid having to engage critically?
Who cares what reason the aggressor has? They are going to keep inventing reasons to invade their neighbors.
Why does Hitler want Poland in particular? If we just give him space to grow crops they’ll be happy and stop guys!
“Anti-warism” is Marvel-level thinking. The Union was correct in invading the Confederacy and freeing the slaves. Millitant intervention is justifiable if the reasoning is correct, if you refuse to analyze anything and just reflexively take the side of the invaded in any and all circumstances, you are powerless to understand why events happen and which way they will flow.
Chiefly, you again stated that Russia is going to “keep inventing reasons to invade their neighbors.” Why do you believe this is true? The stated reasons, wanting NATO neutrality in Ukraine and to protect the ethnic Russians in the Donbass region that Kiev was slaughtering for trying to secede after the Euromaidan coup, tracks perfectly with Russia’s stance on NATO encirclement all the way back when NATO was founded as an anti-communist coalition against the USSR.
Hitler invaded Poland as a part of Lebensraum. Nazi Germany had a millitant structuring of society. Capital was in crisis, and post World War I, the inter-ally debts that were repaid to the US were pushed onto Germany in the form of reparations for damages during World War I, squeezing the economy and leaving Germany with little to no colonies, and the allies with all of them. As the loser of an inter-imperialist war while still requiring imperialism for capital to function, Hilter and the Nazis turned towards Europe. Nazi Germany was economically compelled for conquest, and promised conquest of a much larger portion of Europe publicly and repeatedly.
The Russian Federation, on the other hand, is what came after the dissolition of the Soviet Union. Russia has had a production-focused economy since the early 1900s, and hasn’t been imperialist since the Tsar. Russia does not have the huge amounts of financial capital necessary to compel imperialism into action, what it seeks from the Russo-Ukrainian War is a barrier to prevent full-scale land invasion from NATO through Ukraine. It doesn’t need conquest to sustain its economy, it doesn’t run on export of capital.
The fact that you choose to write fanfiction, and argue against analysis and in favor of blindness, is the epitome of applying a Marvel-like understanding of the world to complex international politics, and the effect of which justifies your desire for Ukrainians to continue fighting a losing war they do not have a wish to fight any longer. You just want bloodsport.
You don’t want the war to end as quickly as possible, you want Russia to gain territory as quickly as possible. Big difference.
I think if the areas that seceded from Ukraine that are majority ethnically Russian, that have been shelled and slaughtered by Kiev for a decade, want to join Russia, then that’s okay. That isn’t in conflict with wanting the war to end as quickly as possible, Russia has the means to pursue that aim millitarily whether Kiev agrees to it or not. Russia has no reason to expand beyond the oblasts at this point, it isn’t in this war for extraction, so it seems acceptable to me.
If they are ethnically Russian and want to join Russia, then the solution is for them to move to Russia, NOT for Russia to just invade and take it.
Or wait, perhaps they don’t want to move to Russia because it’s a corruption filled shit hole of misery?
Historically, the 4 oblasts were Russian. That’s why the majority living there are ethnically Russian, they speak Russian as their primary language. They have ties to the land. It wasn’t until Lenin gave Ukraine in 1922 the oblasts that these territories came under Ukrainian jurisdiction, but at a national level this area is traditionally, culturally, and ethnically Russian. That’s why they seceded from Ukraine, and later asked to be annexed. It’s the land of their ancestors, and their ancestors were Russian.
Look to my allies for help. Ukraine isn’t in the wrong for defending itself. Russia is the bad guy here.
Isn’t that what NATO is already doing? What do you forsee changing?
Removed by mod
But you don’t actually think that’s likely, do you? So you are advocating that Ukraine wipes themselves out even though at this point support for continuing the war is falling dramatically? To the last Ukrainian, then?
“Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it flows”
The empire demands bloodsport.