Apparently I did it recently… here in autism@lemmy.world..
“People that avoid self-reflection”. So much a main trait of narcissism, it could almost be synonymous. [It’s a] Pity [that] narcissism and autism are not mutually exclusive, otherwise things could likely be a lot more pleasant around here, with greater overlap of amicability in communication styles among us autistics.
It’s a joy when it just flows, and the ideas are explored, and words mean what they mean. No presumption of hostile subtexts when simple questions are asked, no histrionics and combative accountability evasiveness in response to curiosity.
The [extra] irony of that example I linked… They’d just stated they were hoping someone might actually be curious about them. And they still got triggered! [Even though the curiosity question about them, was also obviously whimsical humour… [… unless of course it struck a nerve, too close to some truth they’re desperate to not even consider, despite obviously knowing it on some level, or there’d not be the getting triggered.]]
Though in this instance, I think that was likely their intent… just trolling for attention, for a loosh lunch. Gets me wondering how higher a population % here are “truth tellers” (in the archetypes paradigm of narcissism), and “third phase empaths”, and other types that are more prone to exposing narcissists, above the increased susceptibility autistic people have for narcissistic abuse. … Almost seems like it’s a trap. We as a community/demographic, appear vulnerable prey, but then there are those among us who’ve simply had a longer harder training in observantly persisting in the abuse… and so, we’re better apt as those who can say to the dark tetrads and covert narcissists, “I see you.”. … And they don’t like it. They’d rather we just see the image they’ve put so much effort their whole lives into optimally preening to manipulate people by. Exposure threatens the supply of the covert/vulnerable/community narcissist, more than the grandiose/malignant narcissist. And [a narrative of] being threatened just arms their poor-me drama all the more, to more effectively manipulate people’s compassion by.
Non-narcissistic autistics don’t tend have a socially manipulative bone in our body. [~ … what a curious expression… you get the gist though, right?]
Despite the overlap of appearances, in many important ways, we’re like opposites. We have the empathy, and the social ineptitude (by normative measure). They lack the empathy, and are all about the social manipulation.
Offer a question to us, and we’re likely to take the question and explore it at face value, and go deeper from there. Offer a question to a narcissist, and the answer you get, will either be reactive of narcissistic injury, [and/]or strategically manipulative, to make sure they appear as grand as they envision themselves to be, because everybody else has to see them as great as they see themselves, or else! [<- for the more Yang type. Or to make sure they appear as vulnerable as possible, to elicit your compassion. ~ for the more Yin type.]
*sigh*. Narcissists are the worst.
Me, an aspie: Why is rule A in place? Why can’t we do X instead of Y, X seems more efficient and would save time.
Them, A Normie: That’s just the way it is, conform.
Nobody seems to understand that I’m just genuinely curious about things. I have no other reason for asking. Nothing wrong, nothing to make fun of you for, and nothing to try and make things worse. Don’t ask me why I asked.
It just happens.
Me: Question A
Them: Ah you must really mean Question B. Here’s your answer.
Me: OK but Question A
Them: Ooh, you’re really grilling me now. Relax.
I endlessly strive to figure out how to have my words mean what they mean, when asking questions. TOO MANY times, suffering this^ scenario.
… And then tone too, finding what this mystery perfect intonation that has them remain in their considerate, critical, creative, compassionate forebrain, and not be thrust to the back of their brain in survival mode. It’s just an honest question! … Ever baffling, the psychology, the astrology, the lunar cycles, the weather, whatever else is going on in their life, to cause these impediments to simple direct communication that means what it means, and not all these sensational pos-hoc subtexts imagined but not intended.
I had a job interview once at a dual language company (me Eng, them another but spoke English) They asked what entailed in a previous job i had held, and I told them, “[…] making sure to give the customer an 'award-winning- smile.”
I knew this phrase had been used before metaphorically by people, after some of my own trial and error, but the interviewers then were surprised and then asked how I got the award.
I got dumbfounded by how seriously they took my attempt at light-hearted conversation, then I had to explain to them it doesnt always mean seriously.
Weird return on that one. Caught me so off guard.
I remember that asking a co-worker if we should do something, came across as ordering them, and made then very angry.
… A-ha! Yus! So that’s where it comes from… I think I just figured it out.
All the euphemistic speak, all the corporate speak, all the political speak… all the “nice’ty” (<- the portmanteau of nasty and nice), has trained peoples minds to only hear things like that now, so rife it has been for so long, especially for some, steeped in it all day every day…
… So however do we get back, out of this newspeak hole? Just carry on defiantly speaking straight forward? We can still mend this.
“I asked the question I intended to ask using the words that I intended to use because they have the meaning that I intend them to have. There’s no secret subtext to read into, I am asking this question literally with the words coming out of my actual human mouth” And people will still think I’m fucking sarcastic.
A part of my job before i got let go was to write up “Recaps” and so I would dutifully document a summary of the days events, vital state and what not. I was truthful in what I wrote, but was eventually told by HR I had a “sarcasm problem.”
My (internal) reaction: https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExd2J6OXpndG9iZDYwN2Jka3FiY25wZzJlbW5nN2FmcmJ3aW1oZnpnbSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/dw7lCpFmsyfS0/giphy.gif https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZjU4bDFiZThjY2Y2NHp5NG8ycGFnZWlsbnB3aDZnMWhpMWZicTZyaSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/l3q2K5jinAlChoCLS/giphy.gif https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZ2dzMXZvdDI3amNteWt0bTJnemp6emFiemxyaHBocGFiNWVodXgwYyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/5oFjKRms23Lmt42GQt/giphy.gif
A good chunk of people are hostile bloodsuckers just pretending to be normal people, and they think everyone thinks like them secretly.
So usually, the person will look at an angle of how you are trying to undermine them.
No contact those people.
Some of the people who react that way aren’t bloodsuckers themselves, but have spent enough time around bloodsuckers that they’re more careful with new people. It can be hard to tell the difference and it’s understandable if you want to avoid the whole situation for your own safety.
I had a “friend” that was like this but this was only because she lied to everyone about just about everything and it was at a point where she struggled to keep up with the lies.
Half the time it was pointless nonsense. The other half it meant she was probably cheating or attempting to cheat with someone in the group’s partner.
You shouldn’t be getting upset because your friends remember what you said the last time you hung out. That’s just weird.
I learned while gardening that when you lay manure to fertilise, the direction of the wind will determine the neighbors you upset. Just being yourself is going to upset someone at some point and it’s entirely out of our control.
I love this analogy so much.
Oh I hate this. They tell me something interesting, I ask questions because I’m genuinely curious. And now they’re offended because they think I’m questioning what they just said.
My uncle is further on a spectrum than me, and when I was young I hated when he does this. You tell the story, and there is a passing character that doesn’t matter, but now he asks a lot of info about that one. Used to drive me crazy. The story is about a cute dog in a hat I saw on a train, it doesn’t matter how old was the dude that walked past it and also complemented the hat. It doesn’t matter where was the train going. A dog was wearing a hat, who cares how many people was also on a train.
I now understand better why he was asking the questionsYoung kids are like this, unable to parse what the is important and not important in any given story. They grow out of it pretty quickly, by maybe 10, at least in my experience. We’re neurotypical (as far as I know).
For my special interests I don’t mine follow up questions at all, in fact I like them. But most normal stories or narratives are fairly linear and there’s no need to follow every thread.
importance in the eye of the beholder
Of course, but when listening to a story it’s usually polite to listen to the person telling the story and what they want to tell you, what they deem important.
Wanna share a special interest here maybe? Seems a good thread for it.
Ah, well, there are many of them. Collecting ancient coins, for example. Messing around with Reticulum, an alternative network structure. Right now also shooting pistols, just started that some months back. Byzantine history… linguistics, particularly parts of speech in a typological perspective. And many others 😂 but as a dad of 3 I don’t get to spend enough time on them all.
I hear that. I am taking a look at:
Thanks! Sounds like the kind of stack that might help in post apocalyptic scenarios.
Hope to see you on RetiBooks then! 😊
Indeed
Oh yes…all the time. Either that or you’ll just hit a wall of “uh I don’t know?” Or “Why do you want to know such weird things?”.
You stop wanting to participate in society the moment you realize most ‘normal’ people just say random words and avoid thinking about any of them like the plague.
Why?
(This is a joke about asking people why to they suddenly have to do some critical thinking)
My neighbor across the street has solar panels. I chatted with him once, and he brought them up. I asked if he got the battery wall too, and he said no, but seemed slightly miffed. Then, he said his electric bill was $60/mo. I probably didn’t seem suitably impressed, I didn’t tell him mine is $50/mo. and I don’t have solar panels, I just don’t use much electricity. I wanted to ask whether he was leasing them, or took out a loan for them, but didn’t.
I think the only way residential solar panels make sense is to have a battery, especially in the winter when we get a lot less sun, and most people are at work during the day, so a lot of residential electrical use is after sunset. That’s why I asked, but I didn’t say any of that to him.
Nah. I’m in Australia and our electricity bills have been slaughtered by two thirds. We used to have a powerpal (it died, ironically for the following) and even midwinter there would be huge chunks of the day where it registered 0 meter use - we are literally powering everything in the house just via solar.
So even without a battery (they’re 20k+) we’ve cut a large chunk of fossil fuels clean out of use. We also feed back into the grid - we get bugger all money for it, but that’s not the point. The point is reduction of fossil fuelled power.
Either the batteries are way more expensive in Australia than here in Europe or you have old prices.
The batteries that I am running are definetly much cheaper than yours (<5k), although I did install them myself.
It’s called the Australia Tax for a reason!
But yeah, we’re looking at a 16-20kwh battery system (we have a huge solar array) so $$
That sounds way nicer than the US. Even the high pressure sales guy said the math didn’t math for our house. It’s basically a 20 year loan to pay off the panels and even though we don’t have many trees I guess our house is at the wrong angle? To break even we would have to make it to 20 years. To save we would have to keep it longer than that. But they were only warranteed for 10. No thanks.
we get bugger all money for it, but that’s not the point.
Money is the point for most people, I would think. Altruism doesn’t pay the bills.
If you’re at the point where you’re selling excess, you’re already not paying for electricity.
You may enjoy playing snide gotchas. I don’t.
Inserting context (especially that much at once) is rather difficult TBF.
Where I live most electric is air conditioning.
And what the hell else are you gonna do with that space? Do they get in the way of your rooftop garden?
This post is a perfect example of everything is neurodivergent now.
Wym by everything?? This is a neurodivergent community after all, or do you mean it’s something a lot of people talk to you about??
I felt that. I thought I had some ADHD tendencies like every one has. The people making ADHD content online are describing generic everyday experiences that everyone has. Just pandering bull shit to make people feel unique from everyone else. But I didn’t need some diagnosis - I just had some tendencies like everyone!
And then I started therapy for some PTSD and depression symptoms following hurricane Helene. The therapist clued in pretty quickly to other issues in my life. This eventually led to my seeing a psychologist. I started talking to him and it took a medical doctor telling me that I was not processing the world normally to even suspect that I may actually have ADHD. I wasn’t totally convinced though. So, I started to talk to my friends about how they spend their time, how they engage with their hobbies, what do they really mean when they say something went by quickly or that something took forever. What were they actually doing when they said that they did some task for hours. Turns out, we were certainly not on the same wavelength about things. I started meditation a week ago and the results are game changing.
Work? Easier. Mood? Happier. House? Cleaner.
My 10 year old son commented that I was nicer than normal. He was excited that I was able to sit with him and watch him show me something in a videogame. Normally, I can only stand that for maybe 30 seconds to 60 seconds. The other day, I probably watched him play dead cells for 20 minutes! It was great bonding time.
So, if you find this stuff relatable, there maybe a reason beyond common platitudes of the human experience. Talk to a doctor and see if there may be something to it.
Yep absolutely. Especially with these communication challenges NT <-> ND and trying best to understand. Suddenly bam! aggro mode.
I was just trying to understand, genuinely. No, you went too far!
Curiosity can be rude
TW domestics story
I had an ex that I had to walk on eggshells around like this.
If I accidentally talked about outer space, or spirituality, or anything interesting like that, it would trigger a dangerous panic attack. Like, “hide the knives”, kind of existential dread. Grab the benzo’s and the day is ruined.
After a while, sometimes all it would take is them seeing me reading quietly on the couch to trigger it, because they knew what I was reading about. Obviously it didn’t last long after that lol.
Some people just cannot handle thinking about certain things, and it’s very strange to me. Like real life self-inflicted thought crimes.
Been with someone like that. I honestly think they were a narcissist, for other reasons, and I think realizing they didn’t actually matter really bothered them. The universe doesn’t revolve around anyone and people shit themselves about it.
I personally can’t empathize with why. Like get over yourself a little
That… actually kind of checks out. They got really really really mad when I said the n- word (no). Also, when I talked to them, sometimes they would do this verbal aikido thing. Suddenly the conversation becomes weird and confusing, and I’m somehow the one at fault. I’m not sure if that’s a diagnosis, though.
Sounds pretty cluster B to me. I discourage armchair diagnoses, but learning about these personality types and how to handle them is very helpful as they’re everywhere.
There’s a book, “Stop Walking on Eggshells”, that addresses much of it.
It should be taught in schools. If I had been told about narcissists when my brain was still forming I could have avoided at least some of the damage they did to me later. It took over 15 years to undo. That kind of damage is crucial to avoid in children and young adults.
Preach, shit’s fucked that it takes aging out alive, and finding a shrink yourself to actually usually give you enough of a lever to get away from those crappy situations in childhoods.
Just looked that up. Narcissistic-Vulnerable or maybe Borderline personality disorder seems kind of suspicious to me, but I’m no doctor that can tell them apart easily haha. Also there is a 0% chance they would ever talk to a psychiatrist about it lol. I’ll give that book a look too. I actually found the book “why does he do that” extremely helpful in my case for… various reasons. I love reading about psychology so I’ll probably enjoy the rec, thanks!
Verbal akido is exactly what it was.
I would often walk away from arguments confused how something I was bringing up that bothered me was my fault like how anytime I fed the cats, I did it wrong even though it’s just fucking feeding cats there’s no magic song and dance or how asking for my own personal time to do just this exact thing, read about nerd shit/work on d&d/be in my brain about my interests was neglectful and rude to them or something like I affected their space with wanting personal time.
In one argument I remember having to plainly state how I was the one upset not them, this was a problem I was having not them.
When we split we had to live together for a few months because the room at my parent’s I was moving into needed work on the ceiling. I often got home around 930/10pm from work so I’d doordash an extra meal for myself so I didn’t have to the next day. She was looking around the kitchen for something to eat so I offered her what I had ordered. Somehow within the next fifteen minutes I was annoying and it was somehow rude of me to offer this food to them?
I said fuck that put the food in the fridge and ignored any game she tried to play with my mind from that day forward. Which quickly spiraled into some serious abusive shit they’d never done before - punching themselves in the head when they were upset with me, throwing my clothes in the snow, and accusing me of being weird for normal behavior like doing laundry or singing in the shower.
Absolutely insane how some people are. My advice to anyone is really really think about the people in your life. You’d like to think you know them but you’ve never seen them handle every situation possible and in some of those situations they will absolutely flip on you and do stuff you’d never expect.
Could you give an example how they reacted? I can’t picture a human being like this at all.
They had an anxiety disorder. So the sequence of emotions was like:
- Me: “Hey look at this video showing how far away and big Jupiter is!”
- The universe is humongous.
- My entire life is a vanishingly small atom in the cosmic ocean
- Nothing means anything
- Fear of death mixed in there as well, with afterlife uncertainty.
Their religious beliefs were what I’d classify as, “doesn’t believe in anything, but also terrified and trying not to think about it”. I don’t know if that has a name, normally atheists I meet are more emotionally stable than that and don’t collapse when you say the word “afterlife”.
TW domestics and abuse
Then they would start pacing, hyperventilating, violent outbursts, self harm, all sorts of crazy shit. It was like they felt the full weight of God or something. Literally nothing would calm them down, it would take hours to days. Sometimes it got too much for them and they’d go for the knives. I’ve never felt more scared and powerless than trying to get a knife safely off an unpredictable person.
From then on I kept sharp things hidden and I was the only one allowed to chop the vegetables lol. Benzo’s helped but obviously you can’t just keep popping those. Eventually it stopped being healthy for me too, it was a lot to deal with, and I felt like I was making them worse just by existing near them, so I ended it.
My guess is that they started to associate my face with the episodes which became it’s own trigger. Obviously I did my best to try and support them, but sometimes your best isn’t enough.
They were worse at first because they were alone, but they had family and friends to lean on. I think they’re doing better now. They still have the anxiety disorder of course, but I’m not there to trigger it anymore. I’m doing better without the stress of having to monitor my speech constantly and be on alert for an episode.
Regarding atheists who don’t believe in anything but are also terrified: I totally get that
My whole life people have been telling me that I’m going to hell. I believe that heaven and hell are a construction / fantasy of man, and there really isn’t anything to suggest otherwise.
But when people keep insisting on a lie, after a while you might start to believe it. Even if you don’t believe in it. If that makes sense at all.
I’m not sure what you’d call that either though. Technically I think it might jump the gap from atheism to agnosticism, but I’m no theologian.
In their case, it was more like they believed after death it was total nonexistence and void, but also that concept was scary. Like they didn’t actually want the thing they believed, if that makes sense. Their beliefs were just another source of anxiety for them. For context, they were raised in a non-religious household.
I think you just get recycled back, and THAT’s what I’m terrified of.
Inserting my daily Britt Hartley reference here: She talks about how the core value of truth is correlated with atypicals, while core values of loyalty & belonging are more typical. It leads a lot of atypical people into atheism, but even a religious atypical is more likely gonna have thought deeply and been tortured by it.
This whole just believe what we tell you and basically be a good person thing is not gonna fly.
That’s very interesting… in this case it was actually the opposite. I was the spiritual atypical and my ex partner was the atheist (?) typical. Though they never committed to any belief label.
We did have a lot of problems with those things you mentioned though. They cared a lot about loyalty and belonging, but I needed quiet and calm. Often I would slowly be chased around the house, one seat at a time lol. One of many reasons it wasn’t particularly healthy in retrospect.
Was she raised atheist? I’ve found atheists raised religious have often done a lot more grappling.
(see cousin comment) yep they were raised in a non-religious household
“I felt like I was making them worse just by existing near them, so I ended it.”
Well put. I hear that one right in the feels.
AuDHD here, crippling fear of death because my brain can’t comprehend not existing.
Mine is more like I’m pretty comfortable with myself and being vulnerable and it makes other people super uncomfortable instead of triggered.
I get that. I’ve worked hard to calibrate my filter so it’s appropriate to different situations. It’s difficult to figure out the line sometimes. The best I can do is take the misunderstandings and turn them into self-deprecating jokes. I might end a spiel with, “Okay, I’m done nerding out now” or something along those lines. Usually people are cool about it. Maybe it’s the acknowledgement of my own awkwardness that helps?
Otherwise, I often hear, “Huh, I never thought about it that way,” and honestly that’s my favorite response. I want to make people question things. I want them to reflect on why they do what they do. I know it can be uncomfortable, but it’s better than living a life unexamined.
StOp InTeRroGaTiNg Me!
