That is exactly true. Life is only about 3 things: food, reproduction and dealing with boredom. Humans add so many colours to that, that it looks like we do more than those 3 things so that’s where you might see free will.
“I’m driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, ‘George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.’ And I did, and then God would tell me, ‘George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,’ and I did.”
- George W Bush
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-6262644.html
He sounds like Elwood from The Blues Brothers. “We’re on a mission from God.”
You have the freedom to choose God or face an eternity of unimaginable suffering.
No good god would make an unlasting punishment. if you have forever, then even Hitler, Dahmer would have enough time for a finite punishment. Even the worst people in the world don’t deserve a unlasting punishment.
The Nicean Council excluded a bunch of books, and Jesus was Jewish. In kabbalah, you learn about reincarnation, and so why did people think Jesus and John were OT prophets? So karma isn’t a punishment, but a teacher, you repeat lessons, which are scaffolded, until they are mastered. Well, why don’t you remember past life lessons? Why aren’t crib sheets allowed in exams? Is doing the right thing only for personal gain still the right thing? Then no one should be upset with billionaires for reversing dei. And Jesus said the whole law can be summed love God, love your neighbor as yourself. Not better than, not less than. And that the kingdom of heaven is within us. Also the fall of the morning star gave “the devil” the earth as his dominion. “Be in the world, not of it,” and “be wise as serpents, innocent as doves,” eg be neither boot nor doormat. Love you neighbor as yourself. Ha-Satan is the prosecutor, who freely comes and goes into heaven (where is the Kingdom?) who lists every reason (sin) you don’t get to be there (schism of self). And a defending angel can list one redeeming quality and you’re in. You passed that particular lesson set. Now you have a new set.
Also Jesus said he teaches in parables, don’t take things so literally. Why wouldn’t he want every student to understand? They’re not on that lesson set, yet. Someone just learning division isn’t ready for trig.
You make a great point about how we’re not allowed to remember lessons. Wouldn’t the world be more peaceful if everyone knew what lessons they had already learnt? Like say in one life someone insults someone with a disablity, the next life they’re a person with the same disability and they remember the insults they said so they know how shitty they made that person feel? And in turn, would make them do the right thing more often, not because of personal gain but because it’s the right thing to do. Without the memories, people could revert straight back to throwing insults. It’s like putting a kindergartener in college math because “Well you’ve been here before so you must remember.” but the kindergartener can’t even do his times tables. How are we supposed to learn when we don’t even know what lessons we’ve already learnt? When you’re at school, you remember the previous lessons you’ve learnt and even have knowledge of them so why isn’t it the same in a spiritual school?
My personal perspective is we forget because doing the right things for the wrong reasons, hoping for punishment or reward, is wrong. And also because variables change over time, so the lessons can’t be presented in the same way. For instance the difference between common core multiplication and memorizing the tables.
Or another example, the periodic tables contain n elements at one time, x elements another.
So even if I remember the periodic tables from when I learned it (I don’t!), they’ve changed in the decades since, so my knowledge is incomplete. Assuming I had the physical, mental, financial and material capacity to become a physicist, should I choose, I have a lot to relearn, unlearn, and learn new things, additionally. And that’s just this lifetime.
I appreciate your non-hostile inquiry style. Thanks so much. Btw these things don’t require God. It’s just an allegorical tool. Just like communism has many approaches and corruptions as there are minds to conceive them, so too religions. Even Buddhism and Taoism.
Sure, lessons can’t be presented in the same way. I agree with you on that. But different lessons while rembering the previous lessons would make life much more meaningful in my view.
It’s like watching movies. Movies are not presented all the same way because that would be boring but having memories of all the movies you’ve seen makes you appreciate film even more, especially if it’s a great one. A comedy movie has a different experience than a thriller movie but remembering the movies you’ve seen can make you appreciate the films even more. But now imagine watching rotating between superbad and taken and you don’t even remember you’ve already watched them. That’s what not remembering the lessons feels like to me.
I will always try and respect people’s viewpoints even if I don’t agree with them myself. You’re also doing a good job at that, so well done.
Thanks so much, I appreciate your respect and return it! If you’re native English speaker, do you remember how to diagram sentences? If not, do you remember every from every class you’ve taken? Photographic memory allows for that, but even people with that gift forget things. My point is, it gives us a loose framework. Variable changes affect data, and if we’re living in a lab, some variables aren’t controlled for, we can’t even be aware of every variable (Einstein’s spookiness? Not sure, I have to go back and look, later). Or how “ethers” became gasses. Or demon possession became mental illness, but we still say we’re fighting our demons. Sorry, I should be working so this is rushed.
I see it like a puzzle on a tabletop, but there’s not room for the completed puzzle and all the pieces spread at once, so some being left in the boxtop. Generally, people find and place border pieces first, then put more pieces from the bottom on the table to fit into place. And I’m imperfect so there’s that.
If everyone remembered your past lives you could be held accountable for actions “you” never took. Imagine being born only to find out that your last life was a serial murderer and you have 300 consecutive reincarnations left before you’ll ever experience freedom again.
No, I think its better that we don’t remember. Plus, life wouldn’t be at all novel if you’ve already experienced everything there is for you to enjoy.
Being hold accountable actions I never took is the concept of karma. This life I have now is the result of all my previous karma in the buddhist view of it. But how do I know I deserve this life? What did I do to earn it? I didn’t do anything, I just happened to be born in this life. It doesn’t feel fair to not know why we’re in these lives to begin with.
Your analogy seems great to me. I would know why I’m in that specific life and I would know how long I have here. Each life would feel like making progress and making progress would show I’m truly sorry for being a serial murderer in a past life. That should be how reincarnation works, everyone knows who they were in a past life and if it’s lesson oriented how many lives they have to live. If someone knows they have 300 lifetimes then they would know all the details of what they did in the 300 lifetimes. Plus if god is truly omnipotent, then he can create things he himself hasn’t even seen still making things novel while rembering past lifetimes.
I always wondered about that. When would enough be enough.
It could take hundreds or thousands of years but no one person deserves unending punishment for finite sins.
Depends on the flavour of Christianity
At one end unforgiven sins condemn you to the ancient Greek underworld, slightly modified
At the other end you land in limbo if you haven’t been perfect for a time that fits, thence to heaven for the rest of forever
Beyond that end, their god is infinitely forgiving so everyone goes straight to heaven.
At the other end you land in limbo if you haven’t been perfect
Slight correction, but limbo was the ‘first’ area of hell, where you just get bored forever. Purgatory was where you washed off the crusted shit on your soul and could eventually get into heaven.
Thanks. It’s been decades since my last bit of mainstream Catholic education
This
Yup.
The teachings of Christianity don’t make any fucking sense. (Unless you’re willing to gaslight yourself for a lifetime.)
Too bad our entire society is based on this nonsense.
Agreed.
That’s the point of religion. Trick the brain into thinking everything is going according to plan so that it gives out the happy time drugs instead of the “you need to wake the fuck up and do something about this” drugs. The religion pushers get their cut, and everyone thinks their happy.
Now now, don’t discount free reign to also gaslight others for a lifetime as well. And judge and shame others too. It’s great for complete assholes.
I think that’s part of the appeal: the ingrained superiority Christians feel.
Not just Christians, that’s a common thing with any cult, be it for a person, a country, etc.
There’s actually a specific christian worldview called Calvinism where the view is that god wanted Adam and Eve to eat the apple and God was the snake on the tree which means god wanted all the wars on earth if you believe that view.
Pish. Calvinism teaches that God was the serpent? You’re a bit off base there.
Waiting for reference. Other than a Chick tract.
Ok, I misrembered the details so my bad on that one. What it actually teaches was that god created the serpent, put the serpent in the garden, knew Adam and eve wouldn’t resist the serpent so god still wanted all the wars and misery in this world.
“Wanted” is a funny word. The idea that there’s something difficult to understand about a supreme being who is so far above us that he created not only us but the entire universe according to what’s revealed about him? That shouldn’t seem a strange idea.
Imagine if we met an advanced alien who had technology far beyond ours. We might not be able to understand a lot of the way they thought, spoke, or acted.
The thing is, it actually says that in the Bible.
Isaiah 55:8-9 NLT “My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the Lord. “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.
Yet we keep wanting to subject Him not only to our reasoning, but to our language.
My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the Lord. “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.
Yet if adam and eve had just eaten the fruit of immortality, apparently they would have been exactly like god. That’s also in the bible. It’s almost as if there are contradictory parts and it’s full of bunk…
It’s not that diffcuilt to understand so I don’t know why you assumed I would find it diffcuilt to understand. I’m not that religious myself, I’m more agnostic but I’m happy to have respectful conversations about different viewpoints than mine.
There are a few verses which state god planned everything that would happen in this world. Romans 8:29-30 “For those God foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”
Ephesians 1:5 and 11 “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will… In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”
So it’s not difficult to understand with these verses that in the lense of calvinism, god planned everything that would happen in this world and knew exactly what would happen.
Yes, we agree completely. I just meant the word “wanted” is pejorative. You can intend something without necessarily wanting it.
When he was little my son broke the growth plate off of his arm at the wrist. It was essential that it be pushed back into place. The doctor needed me to hold him still, to hold his arm still as he pushed that bone back on top where it belonged.
My son had a lot of pain. I didn’t want to hold him still while he endured that pain. But I intended to. I did it.
And all those events were planned under the lense of calvinism which you had no control of planning it yourself so predestination and no free will.
Well, Christianity presents us with many things with seemingly contradictory qualities that are nonetheless to be held in tension, and not resolved.
For instance, Jesus Himself is fully man, and fully God. Not half and half. No division, no partiality. Completely 100% a man. And completely 100% God.
Same with the Bible. Who wrote it? Humans, of course. Every word. AND…
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
There are earthly parallels as well. Light is both a wave and a particle (we’re still sorting that out). Schrödinger’s cat. There are lots of examples.
There’s nothing unusual about a situation where God is fully in control of everything and humans have free will. It’s just hard to wrap your head around.
The answer isn’t to say, “God can’t (or won’t) do anything about that.” That denies God’s power and goodness.
The answer is also not to say, “Since I’m God’s puppet I have no will or blame.” That denies our responsibility and sin.
The Bible is quite clear that both are true. God is powerful, good, and in control. And humans are capable, sinful, and responsible for their actions.
I don’t think many Christians would actually argue for that first point tbh. It’s not something Biblically portrayed as one of God’s gifts. Free will is portrayed as something that was given conditionally, but taking from the tree of knowledge and specifically eating the fruit of knowledge is known as man’s first sin in the Bible.
I think it’s a bit of a metaphor for a parent wanting to shield their child from the harshness of reality, but as the sheltered child grows older they often want to know more about the outside world and in doing so become exposed to the cruelty. This was my own experience with religion growing up. A teacher of mine one day sat us down and pleaded the above with our class, as many of us grew to see through the veil of how reality looked.
In retrospect I think some things about the world make sense to not be told about, depending on one’s age. However, I think other things should never be hidden, have been hidden, or done in other cases.
Side note: I think the idea of God’s plan is for people to hold love for one another. Lots of people lose sight of what they are called to do and how they are to act though. They’re called to love their neighbor as their self, called to love their enemy, and called to forgive others for their transgressions. I personally think people are called to do good works in conjunction with holding faith, as people are called to act righteously in this life.
Don’t worry, they don’t read the Bible, and especially don’t read the old testament.
They believe they have god given freedom of action
I don’t think many Christians would actually argue for that first point tbh.
Then truthfully, I don’t think you’ve had this conversation with many christians. Every single one immediately defaults to that point when confronted with the horrors god would be responsible for if god is in control.
I’m not saying that people don’t have free will or that it’s not talked about in the Bible, but free will is not something presented as a gift, yet alone God’s greatest gift to humanity as the meme says.
From my perspective, once God set the universe in motion he has mostly taken a step back from direct action. I would say life is a test of sorts for us, to see if we can make earth resemble the good of heaven, on a humanity wide scale. But it’s also an individual test for each person’s willingness to use their obtained knowledge to still be good unto others. We are all the children of God, from my own perspective we are learning to become like God, who is the Bible is shown as loving and kind.
the horrors god would be responsible for if god is in control
You’re forgetting the counterfactual. Namely, that we live in The Best Of All Possible Worlds and what you describe as horror is actually the nicest things can conceivably get. The standard Christian argument is that, without God, existence would be significantly worse. Also (depending on your flavor of Christianity) the mortal life is a proving ground not a final destination. Life is a trial one experiences before being eligible to enter the Kingdom Of Heaven, where God is fully in control.
The horrors are a consequence of Free Will mixed with the corruptive influences of evil spirits sent out to tempt mortals to sin. And they are transient, while the Christian Reward is supposed to be eternal. You see this best in the Story of Job, during which he suffers a litany of torments but holds firm to his faith. This faith is ultimately rewarded, not just through the restoration of his material pleasures, but through the promise of an eternal blissful afterlife.
If God were all-powerful, he could create another all-powerful God who could destroy him against his will, thus making him less than all-powerful.
The mere idea of an all-powerful God contains a ton of paradoxes.
Reminds me of the Epicurean Paradox:
You could replace “God” with “Parents” to the same effect.
But arguing that a parent is evil because they see a child committing an error, know it is an error, and decline to intercede doesn’t rationally follow. If you helicopter over your kids and intercede every time they make mistakes, they never develop into independent and mature adults. You also induce a lot of anxiety, as you’re constantly interposing yourself between the child’s desires and actions without the ability to convey the wisdom of your decisions. So the kid sees you as the harmful force, rather than the thing you’re seeking to avert.
So what’s a Parent/God to do? Do you puppet your child, never letting them stray farther than the length of a string? Do you lock your child in a padded ceil and hand-feed them every day? Do you hardwire their programming, so they can’t deviate from your design, acting exclusively on a divine instinct?
Is that really what we consider “Goodness”?
There is also the Calculation Problem to consider. A God-like intelligence might be able to observe far more than a human without being perfectly omniscient. Similarly, they might be able to calculate probabilities more quickly and accurately without being perfectly prescient. If a Parent/God knows most of the things but is not omniscient, does that mean they are unworthy of your attention or the reception of wisdom? At the same time, is it the duty of a Parent/God to restrict the actions of the others in their domain to the things they can calculate in advance? This brings us back to the idea of the Child Prisoner or Brainwashed Child. You’re safe at the expense of any kind of growth or personal liberty. God treats you like a farmer treats a veal calf - perfectly unspoiled through inaction.
And finally, there is the problem of Entropy. A God who can foresee everything and recognizes that Evil is inevitable. Is such a God responsible for this Evil simply because it can perceive it? Is such a God responsible for this Evil simply because it cannot prevent it? Is this flaw in God’s power a reason to reject it as a source of virtue?
Consider Odin hanging from Yggdrasil, his eye plucked out in pursuit of a way to prevent Ragnorak. He is not all-powerful. He is not-all knowing. He is routinely makes mistakes and even acts out of anger, lust, or petty vengeance. He is fundamentally flawed as dieties come. And yet his primary goal and function - to prevent the end of the world - seems noble enough to justifiably cultivate a religious following.
Parents aren’t all powerful. But the Abrahamic god is (according to their faith) all powerful. So it could stop any war, any disease, any pain, … but does not. Either it’s not all powerful or not good. Choose. Or, as I think, doesn’t exist.
Parents aren’t all powerful.
From the perspective of a newborn, they might as well be. Everything you need to be happy, healthy, and comfortable is actively managed by the parent. You don’t understand anything about your condition or your history or your source of care. All you know is the id-based impulses to complain when you don’t feel good and the soothing release of your feeding, playing, and sleeping cycles.
So it could stop any war, any disease, any pain, … but does not.
What would that look like, from a practical perspective? Imagine trying to explain to a baby that you’re going to stick a needle into its skin in order to prevent it from suffering a disease, when it has no conception of disease. All you know is the pain of the needle. Must you conclude, from that pain, that your nurse is fundamentally evil for inflicting this upon you? And that, by extension, your parents are evil for bringing you to this nurse?
“If parents were truly worthy of my attention, they would have found a better method of vaccinating me than this needle!” is the sort of thing you get to say as a child, precisely because you do not understand the underlying nature of the world you live in. All you know is the scolding language of a parent cajoling you into this immediate superficial pain.
Should humankind be incapable of performing wars? What does that look like? Should humankind be incapable of contracting disease? What does that look like? Should humankind be incapable of experiencing pain, even? Is that what you really want? An eternal numbness of being? Is godly perfection just being a particularly resilient tree?
Either it’s not all powerful or not good.
One can be both exceptionally powerful and exceptionally good without needing to draw a distinction between the two. One can be beyond comprehension, as well. But the argument that a single person experiencing a single moment of discomfort disproves a benevolent deity seems to throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water.
From the perspective of a newborn, they might as well be.
Not in comparison to God. My mom can’t flood the Earth killing everybody.
Exactly as Aizen planned
Free will is an illusion.
Cults and organised religion - name a surprisingly compatible combo.
If you read the Bible with a purely objective mind and come away thinking God is the good guy in the story, I have some serious questions about your morality and ethics.
“Love and worship me or you’ll be sent to hell for all eternity hehe”
Username checks out?
I’m also sick of hearing people say, “God never gives you more than you can handle.”
I know people who have been driven batshit insane by what God has given them.
Satan: Hey, i only do Black Metal bands and orgies, all other things are with the other bloke
I stand with Satan
