I’ve found a working hypothesis that seems mostly true.
“No-one is the villain of their own story.”
If someone seems to be doing something evil for no reason, you likely don’t understand their reasoning. It might not be a good reason, from my perspective, but they will have a reason. Once you can figure out where your values differ, it often becomes obvious why they are acting that way.
Yeah once you dispel the idea of the soul you have to admit that if you were in anyone else’s position, like with their same upbringing and everything, that you would act exactly as they did.
The soul likely doesn’t exist (outside our nervous system), with predetermination holding. At the same time, the lie of self determination is an extremely useful one, but as an individual, and as a society.
At the same time, the lie of self determination is an extremely useful one, but [sic?] as an individual, and as a society.
Do you mean both? to both individuals and societies?
I’m not sure I agree. I think much cruelty and misunderstanding is justified by the idea that someone could have chosen a different life.
I definitely think people can change for the better and we should encourage that, but I wonder if putting that all on them is even useful. To some it is, I’m sure, but …
Ah, well, except for pathological issues like narcissists and psychopaths for example. There are quite a few people who do evil things and state that they do it because it’s their right and privilege to do so.
They might see themselves as privileged, but rarely as the villain. Narcissists see themselves as the hero, through a VERY distorted lens. Sociopaths don’t get the empathy feedback making them the villain.
It’s a good way to get a handle on their minds. How would it have to be twisted to make it seem either a non-issue or good.
E.g. the rich see money as closer to a score in a computer game. Blue shelling your brother in Mario Kart, just before the finish doesn’t make you a villain. Similarly taking $50 dollars/month more from 10,000 families doesn’t look bad. That’s barely a trip to the pub! (The low income households involved would disagree massively).
That’s basically what I mean. They don’t see themselves as weak and helpless. They are the powerful hero main character. It might be an anti hero, but rarely a villain.
Very few people see themselves in a massively negative light (and function well). If your understanding of their motives requires themselves to be weak or evil, it’s likely got serious flaws.
If it helps, I treat it like dancing. The moves don’t make logical sense, but if you deviate too far, people get upset.
Also, counterintuitively, being both unapologetic and positive gets remarkably good results. NTs instinctively follow the group mindset. We struggle. If we set the default, they will often sync to us, particularly if it’s a positive vibe. Also, NTs are very good at spotting mismatches. If you almost got, but not quite, you trigger uncanny valley effects. If you don’t try and hide (all) your weirdness, they are often a lot more accepting. They don’t pick up “lying creepy” vibes, with no context. It doesn’t work with everyone, but it’s become my default interaction mode.
It’s slowly shifted for me. It’s now less “NTs suck” and more “NTs are boring”. The weirdos of various persuasions are generally far more fun and interesting.
She said she was terribly sorry and wanted to work to save the marriage. We went to individual counseling and then tried couples counseling. She derailed that session by lying almost right off the bat.
She promised nothing would ever happen again, but never took any steps to rebuild trust, other than to say, “Trust me Bro.”
Fast forward 2 kids and 15+ years. She cheated again and has twisted everything around to be my fault. She made me the villain, so she doesn’t have too feel guilty. But then she really believes her bullshit. Says she wants to try and work it out, but then refuses transparency and digs her heels in when I mention couples counseling.
This sucks. She has said some shit that totally took me by surprise. Like, how could she possibly believe the things she was saying. But she did it.
So now, I am 50 years old, have a 12 and 14 year old, and have to re-figure out my life.
I was so dumbfounded when she said the things she did. Like it broke my brain it was such bullshit.
Of course, she’s not toxic, I am the one with all the issues.
Hey I believe in you man. Shit like this can be hard in the moment, but youve still got yourself and your kids. There will be some hard days, but you can do it. As long as there’s life there’s hope and you’re still here.
Damn that sucks man. I’m sorry that happened to you. Just a reminder that your feelings are valid. You’ll be OK at some point but it’s absolutely normal to not be OK now.
Women filter things through their emotions and feelings.
As such, if their emotions and feelings don’t sit right, the truth must be wrong and needs to be changed to fit their feelings.
You then become the villain if you continue to debate from a position of factual truth and evidence, because that violates her internal narrative. And she becomes angry because she thinks that if only you cared about how she felt, you would change your facts to better fit her feelings.
So obviously, you are the toxic and evil one.
No amount of facts, logic, reason, or rationality can touch even the most reasonable of women to the same degree it can convince an average man. And I am saying this as a married man. I have learned this by painful experience.
The only way to ever debate or negotiate with a woman is to reframe her emotions and feelings such that facts and evidence just happen align with it; trying to argue from a position of pure facts and evidence in order to demonstrate the correct choice leads to a near-100% failure rate if her feelings do not agree.
Sure, there are some men who completely ignore facts and evidence, but that arises out of conservative/right-wing ideology - typically Christian-based - which invariably requires the rejection of reality in order to even exist. And there are also men who are led around by their noses by their own emotions and behave like women, but - again - it is an external imposition on them by way of them having been forcibly denied a father figure to learn from when they were younger. So they copied the adult women around them, instead.
Except that I am not alone. As I mentioned, I am married. 30 years with the same woman as of this year.
What I wrote is direct, real-world experience dealing with many different women in many different capacities over the decades.
Everyone does this. Everyone. If you’re about to say you don’t, you’re lying to yourself.
Try being autistic. There are variants that experience almost no ego to speak of, where reactions are facts first regardless of how the person feels about something.
Plus, mature men have learned that operating through emotion is a negative-sum game to themselves, and that the best tactic to dealing with anything that affects them personally is via facts, evidence, logic, and reason. That involving emotions at any initial stage causes significant societal backlash because a man demonstrating any significant emotions, especially vulnerable ones, is seen as a weak and unreliable man that cannot be trusted to support others.
I won’t bother responding to the rest because it’s the world view of someone blinded by their own bitterness and anger.
Ah, nice combination of sour grapes and an ad hominem. Not exactly the most original path, seeing as how often it’s used to shame men into silence, but it’s invariably the only tool left to those who have no possible counter-argument.
But at least I have eyes to see, ears to hear, and a thinking mind to process real-world evidence and facts. I’m not blinkered by ideological ignorance.
And a second ad hominem, too. You want to go three-for-three, or have you demonstrated sufficient intellectual bankruptcy for now?
Women filter things through their emotions and feelings.
Uh, that’s everyone. Its very unusual to not be doing that, and it takes a lot of practice and patience to hold space for your emotions to pass and to understand how they affect your reasonability and to compensate for that in your judgements.
Like for example, after reading this opening sentence of your comment, it is difficult for me to not disqualify the rest of what you are saying as ignorant before I actually read it. I have to observe my emotion and then take a read after that feeling begins to ebb.
And so after pausing and reading the rest of your comment, I see you as someone who rationalizes their feelings to frame a narrative.
Womanish, as referred, in your world view. Hypocritical and lacking self-awareness.
Notice the reference to emotions? Women run on them. In men, it’s incidental. It can be there, but we are punished very readily by society if it’s front-and-centre in the same way.
When someone says ‘OK boomer’; they are referring to your behaviour and the clear limitations that are being demonstrated in thinking, and the experiential gatekeeping of what is ‘right’. The confidence of ignorance. This drawing upon ‘evidence’ over at YouTube to defend that ignorance and support your bias…
This is why it is correct when u/Glytch uses it here, regardless of your physical age.
They might, but is more likely their balance of what is important is shifted. Screwing over NPCs is not massively evil activity. Particularly if they assume they are just doing the same.
I’ve found a working hypothesis that seems mostly true.
“No-one is the villain of their own story.”
If someone seems to be doing something evil for no reason, you likely don’t understand their reasoning. It might not be a good reason, from my perspective, but they will have a reason. Once you can figure out where your values differ, it often becomes obvious why they are acting that way.
Yeah once you dispel the idea of the soul you have to admit that if you were in anyone else’s position, like with their same upbringing and everything, that you would act exactly as they did.
The soul likely doesn’t exist (outside our nervous system), with predetermination holding. At the same time, the lie of self determination is an extremely useful one, but as an individual, and as a society.
Do you mean both? to both individuals and societies?
I’m not sure I agree. I think much cruelty and misunderstanding is justified by the idea that someone could have chosen a different life.
I definitely think people can change for the better and we should encourage that, but I wonder if putting that all on them is even useful. To some it is, I’m sure, but …
I dunno the thought is still cooking.
Ah, well, except for pathological issues like narcissists and psychopaths for example. There are quite a few people who do evil things and state that they do it because it’s their right and privilege to do so.
But still, those are exceptions to the rule.
They might see themselves as privileged, but rarely as the villain. Narcissists see themselves as the hero, through a VERY distorted lens. Sociopaths don’t get the empathy feedback making them the villain.
It’s a good way to get a handle on their minds. How would it have to be twisted to make it seem either a non-issue or good.
E.g. the rich see money as closer to a score in a computer game. Blue shelling your brother in Mario Kart, just before the finish doesn’t make you a villain. Similarly taking $50 dollars/month more from 10,000 families doesn’t look bad. That’s barely a trip to the pub! (The low income households involved would disagree massively).
I disagree, blueshelling your brother, makes you a monster.
Only if you’re sure they wouldn’t happily send a shell your way, were the situation reversed. That is a rare situation.
Narcissists see themselves as great and glorious, but they don’t have to be good per se. Anyhow, nevermind discussing literally sick people 😁
That’s basically what I mean. They don’t see themselves as weak and helpless. They are the powerful hero main character. It might be an anti hero, but rarely a villain.
Very few people see themselves in a massively negative light (and function well). If your understanding of their motives requires themselves to be weak or evil, it’s likely got serious flaws.
It really sucks to be an Autist. We often see us very negative due to the (unearned) negative feedback loop mostly stemming from misunderstandings.
Sorry for the derail.
As a fellow autistic, I fully feel you.
If it helps, I treat it like dancing. The moves don’t make logical sense, but if you deviate too far, people get upset.
Also, counterintuitively, being both unapologetic and positive gets remarkably good results. NTs instinctively follow the group mindset. We struggle. If we set the default, they will often sync to us, particularly if it’s a positive vibe. Also, NTs are very good at spotting mismatches. If you almost got, but not quite, you trigger uncanny valley effects. If you don’t try and hide (all) your weirdness, they are often a lot more accepting. They don’t pick up “lying creepy” vibes, with no context. It doesn’t work with everyone, but it’s become my default interaction mode.
I had a lengthy answer here, but being around NT with NT expectations sucks, as you know.
It’s slowly shifted for me. It’s now less “NTs suck” and more “NTs are boring”. The weirdos of various persuasions are generally far more fun and interesting.
My wife cheated on me.
She said she was terribly sorry and wanted to work to save the marriage. We went to individual counseling and then tried couples counseling. She derailed that session by lying almost right off the bat.
She promised nothing would ever happen again, but never took any steps to rebuild trust, other than to say, “Trust me Bro.”
Fast forward 2 kids and 15+ years. She cheated again and has twisted everything around to be my fault. She made me the villain, so she doesn’t have too feel guilty. But then she really believes her bullshit. Says she wants to try and work it out, but then refuses transparency and digs her heels in when I mention couples counseling.
This sucks. She has said some shit that totally took me by surprise. Like, how could she possibly believe the things she was saying. But she did it.
So now, I am 50 years old, have a 12 and 14 year old, and have to re-figure out my life.
I was so dumbfounded when she said the things she did. Like it broke my brain it was such bullshit.
Of course, she’s not toxic, I am the one with all the issues.
My sympathies. I wish you strength in this sudden change in your life! 💜🫂
Saying this sucks doesn’t do it justice. I hope you end up on the other side of this better than you are now.
Hey I believe in you man. Shit like this can be hard in the moment, but youve still got yourself and your kids. There will be some hard days, but you can do it. As long as there’s life there’s hope and you’re still here.
And your wife has this same view of the situation where she’s not the problem.
Damn that sucks man. I’m sorry that happened to you. Just a reminder that your feelings are valid. You’ll be OK at some point but it’s absolutely normal to not be OK now.
None of that was about her reason. How did she make it your fault?
If that’s just an excuse, a post-hoc justification, what do you think is the real reason?
Women filter things through their emotions and feelings.
As such, if their emotions and feelings don’t sit right, the truth must be wrong and needs to be changed to fit their feelings.
You then become the villain if you continue to debate from a position of factual truth and evidence, because that violates her internal narrative. And she becomes angry because she thinks that if only you cared about how she felt, you would change your facts to better fit her feelings.
So obviously, you are the toxic and evil one.
No amount of facts, logic, reason, or rationality can touch even the most reasonable of women to the same degree it can convince an average man. And I am saying this as a married man. I have learned this by painful experience.
The only way to ever debate or negotiate with a woman is to reframe her emotions and feelings such that facts and evidence just happen align with it; trying to argue from a position of pure facts and evidence in order to demonstrate the correct choice leads to a near-100% failure rate if her feelings do not agree.
Sure, there are some men who completely ignore facts and evidence, but that arises out of conservative/right-wing ideology - typically Christian-based - which invariably requires the rejection of reality in order to even exist. And there are also men who are led around by their noses by their own emotions and behave like women, but - again - it is an external imposition on them by way of them having been forcibly denied a father figure to learn from when they were younger. So they copied the adult women around them, instead.
Do you enjoy being alone?
Everyone does this. Everyone. If you’re about to say you don’t, you’re lying to yourself. Humans are emotional beings we interpret things emotionally.
I won’t bother responding to the rest because it’s the world view of someone blinded by their own bitterness and anger.
Except that I am not alone. As I mentioned, I am married. 30 years with the same woman as of this year.
What I wrote is direct, real-world experience dealing with many different women in many different capacities over the decades.
Try being autistic. There are variants that experience almost no ego to speak of, where reactions are facts first regardless of how the person feels about something.
Plus, mature men have learned that operating through emotion is a negative-sum game to themselves, and that the best tactic to dealing with anything that affects them personally is via facts, evidence, logic, and reason. That involving emotions at any initial stage causes significant societal backlash because a man demonstrating any significant emotions, especially vulnerable ones, is seen as a weak and unreliable man that cannot be trusted to support others.
Ah, nice combination of sour grapes and an ad hominem. Not exactly the most original path, seeing as how often it’s used to shame men into silence, but it’s invariably the only tool left to those who have no possible counter-argument.
Ok boomer
A decade too young for that.
But at least I have eyes to see, ears to hear, and a thinking mind to process real-world evidence and facts. I’m not blinkered by ideological ignorance.
And a second ad hominem, too. You want to go three-for-three, or have you demonstrated sufficient intellectual bankruptcy for now?
It’s your vibe, sweaty. You chronological age doesn’t matter.
He says, unable to see beyond his own ideology.
Uh, that’s everyone. Its very unusual to not be doing that, and it takes a lot of practice and patience to hold space for your emotions to pass and to understand how they affect your reasonability and to compensate for that in your judgements.
Like for example, after reading this opening sentence of your comment, it is difficult for me to not disqualify the rest of what you are saying as ignorant before I actually read it. I have to observe my emotion and then take a read after that feeling begins to ebb.
And so after pausing and reading the rest of your comment, I see you as someone who rationalizes their feelings to frame a narrative.
Womanish, as referred, in your world view. Hypocritical and lacking self-awareness.
And among psychologists, what I have said is well-established. In particular, you might want to review a very metaphor-filled but absolutely accurate description of the differences between men’s and women’s brains.
Notice the reference to emotions? Women run on them. In men, it’s incidental. It can be there, but we are punished very readily by society if it’s front-and-centre in the same way.
When someone says ‘OK boomer’; they are referring to your behaviour and the clear limitations that are being demonstrated in thinking, and the experiential gatekeeping of what is ‘right’. The confidence of ignorance. This drawing upon ‘evidence’ over at YouTube to defend that ignorance and support your bias…
This is why it is correct when u/Glytch uses it here, regardless of your physical age.
I’m fairly sure Bibi knows he is a monster.
They might, but is more likely their balance of what is important is shifted. Screwing over NPCs is not massively evil activity. Particularly if they assume they are just doing the same.
Counterpoint: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oIWJxGx1DBY