This has been a successful strategy in existing socialist states, including the Russian revolution. You aren’t doing “harm reduction,” you’re morally justifying accelerationism to yourself.
Like I said, I haven’t seen evidence for not voting being useful in this country at all, and you’re the one saying Republicans are good for getting people on board with socialism.
Unless you can link me a source for this strategy working here, I think we’re done here
I haven’t seen evidence for accelerationism working in any country, meanwhile communist participation in bourgeois elections has worked in many places for increasing revolutionary consciousness. I don’t know why you’re pretending I said we shouldn’t vote, I explicitly said voting for communist parties is a good thing. For the GOP, I said your argument about organizing being easier under the DNC is wrong, not that voting for the GOP is correct.
As it stands, I have good historical evidence of Lenin being correct, and you have no evidence of accelerationist strategies being correct.
I think you’re lost in the sauce of what I was saying. I’m not for accelerationism.
You still haven’t provided evidence that withholding votes works in this country. You also said that the communist candidates never win, so I don’t see what the point is there.
None of what you’ve said has convinced me that they are viable strategies for my immediate goal, which is to keep the GOP out of power.
You’re arguing for voting for the democrats, which is the more competent party for maintaining imperialism. This is a clearly accelerationist stance, trying to speed up centralization of capital and therefore speed up crisis. Organizing isn’t any easier under the DNC, so this is an accelerationist stance.
As for why we should vote for communist parties, I already explained. This helps raise revolutionary consciousness. That is the point. Electoral politics will never alone establish socialism, so the best use of it is to help raise the conditions of class consciousness.
Your immediate goal being to keep the GOP out of power is missing the campfire for the forest fire around you. You want to keep the more competent genocidal imperialists in power, and that is the focus of your immediate praxis. This is accelerationism masked behind a guise of “harm reduction,” when actual harm reduction is gained through collective struggle and establishment of groups to directly protect marginalized groups. Foreign marginalized groups do not seem to matter to you.
Man that’s some high level mental gymnastics you have to pull off to think that Republicans are better for a communist revolution, better for minorities and better for foreign people.
Plus you said voting for communists doesn’t really do anything.
I’m not convinced you’re doing the right thing, and definitely not convinced to follow suit. You’ve given no evidence to your position whatsoever.
I never said the Republicans are better for a communist revolution, I said organizing is paradoxically easier under Republicans because revolutionary sentiment is higher. This does not mean supporting Republicans is correct, as this alienates communists from the rest of the proletariat. I simply said the DNC is the more competent caretaker of the empire, and therefore any elevation of them over Republicans as somehow better for people is just sacrificing the victims of empire.
As for saying “voting for communists doesn’t do anything,” that’s also a lie. I said it advances revolutionary consciousness. If this is “nothing” for you, then you are in fact reformist over revolutionary, and therefore we can see your support of the DNC electorally through that lense, essentially you support the DNC because you think this is the best path to progress. This means you do support the genocidal imperialists, even if you’d rather they not commit genocide and imperialism.
I gave lots of evidence, see the Russian Revolution. Through participation in bourgeois elections, the Bolsheviks were able to expose the sham of liberal democracy in favor of soviet democracy. This allowed them to dissolve the provisional government and establish the Soviet government as the legitimate government.
It’s better to have Republicans in office because that makes people want revolution. So you’re fine with what’s happening now with Trump and ICE murdering people and rights being stripped away and tech bros trying to take everything over, because that’ll make people want a revolution more, so the sacrifices of minorities are necessary. Even though you aren’t an accelerationist.
Communists don’t win elections but that’s somehow ok. If you don’t vote for them and vote for a Democrat then you’re in favor of genocide. Even though that is good when Republicans are in charge because that makes people want revolution more.
The system is terrible and needs to be torn down, but Democrats are so strong and competent that the system won’t get torn down if they are in charge. But voting for people who don’t win will somehow change that. Also Democrats suck and are weak and shitty.
You don’t have proof that refusing to vote has done anything productive in the US, something I specifically asked for. Even though that’s not what you’re advocating for, which is apparently to buy into the system and vote for communists. Even though they don’t win and you don’t want the system to exist and voting for people in the system means you’re pro genocide. You’ve got some historical evidence of having a different election in a different country with a different system doing something, but it doesn’t matter that it’s a completely different situation because you like Lenin.
So yeah, while you’re happy about what’s going on with the world, with Trump and Gaza and ICE and everything because it’ll get the people inspired for revolution that’ll happen Any Day Now, I’m not exactly cool with it and with people being thrown onto the grinder. I think the system could be dismantled even with Democrats in charge. I’ve made my stance pretty clear at this point about Democrats and my opinion of them, and what I think the course of action is.
So I’m going to give you some parting advice.
You want a revolution? You have to win the hearts of the people. You have to get them to want to join you. You have to make them feel welcomed. You have to make them feel heard. You have to make them feel empowered.
The way you and these other people commenting have been acting? People being insulting or saying that someone’s in favor of genocide? Not listening to people and their strategies or reasoning? Being willing to throw minorities under the bus on an assumption?
That’s not it fam. You’re giving your revolution a bad name.
You’re falling into one of the weak spots of the left, and that’s that you want only perfect allies. Only people who operate like you want. The Right doesn’t care that much as long as it’s someone “owning the libs”, they will use or take anyone (till they aren’t useful and throw them under the bus).
So maybe ease up a bit, maybe try to convince people of your position instead of condemning anyone who’s not as left as you, and if you want to try to convince people your way is best, get your story straight and maybe don’t go in attacking people who have a slightly different strategy than you. I’m on your side and want a worker’s revolution and you’ve been acting like I eat infants. That’s not exactly helping.
Oh and don’t keep trying to get the last word, I said I was done a few comments ago.
You said organizing is easier under the DNC. I pointed out that this is factually false, which you take to mean I prefer the GOP outright.
You keep trying to pretend I said we shouldn’t vote. I said we should vote for communist parties. You keep denying this, though, believing the only utility of electoralism to be in getting the DNC into power.
Your point about keeping the DNC in power logically leads to accelerationism. Rather than actually engage with the points I brought, you proceeded to strawman the shit out of my points and then complain that I’m not a reformist. You claim I’ve brought no evidence despite bringing clear evidence, and yourself no counter-evidence.
Really not sure what you’re trying to accomplish. You disagree with revolutionary praxis as worthwhile, while also saying I’m doing revolutionary praxis wrong by not voting for the accelerationist party.
This has been a successful strategy in existing socialist states, including the Russian revolution. You aren’t doing “harm reduction,” you’re morally justifying accelerationism to yourself.
Like I said, I haven’t seen evidence for not voting being useful in this country at all, and you’re the one saying Republicans are good for getting people on board with socialism.
Unless you can link me a source for this strategy working here, I think we’re done here
I haven’t seen evidence for accelerationism working in any country, meanwhile communist participation in bourgeois elections has worked in many places for increasing revolutionary consciousness. I don’t know why you’re pretending I said we shouldn’t vote, I explicitly said voting for communist parties is a good thing. For the GOP, I said your argument about organizing being easier under the DNC is wrong, not that voting for the GOP is correct.
As it stands, I have good historical evidence of Lenin being correct, and you have no evidence of accelerationist strategies being correct.
I think you’re lost in the sauce of what I was saying. I’m not for accelerationism.
You still haven’t provided evidence that withholding votes works in this country. You also said that the communist candidates never win, so I don’t see what the point is there.
None of what you’ve said has convinced me that they are viable strategies for my immediate goal, which is to keep the GOP out of power.
You’re arguing for voting for the democrats, which is the more competent party for maintaining imperialism. This is a clearly accelerationist stance, trying to speed up centralization of capital and therefore speed up crisis. Organizing isn’t any easier under the DNC, so this is an accelerationist stance.
As for why we should vote for communist parties, I already explained. This helps raise revolutionary consciousness. That is the point. Electoral politics will never alone establish socialism, so the best use of it is to help raise the conditions of class consciousness.
Your immediate goal being to keep the GOP out of power is missing the campfire for the forest fire around you. You want to keep the more competent genocidal imperialists in power, and that is the focus of your immediate praxis. This is accelerationism masked behind a guise of “harm reduction,” when actual harm reduction is gained through collective struggle and establishment of groups to directly protect marginalized groups. Foreign marginalized groups do not seem to matter to you.
Man that’s some high level mental gymnastics you have to pull off to think that Republicans are better for a communist revolution, better for minorities and better for foreign people.
Plus you said voting for communists doesn’t really do anything.
I’m not convinced you’re doing the right thing, and definitely not convinced to follow suit. You’ve given no evidence to your position whatsoever.
I never said the Republicans are better for a communist revolution, I said organizing is paradoxically easier under Republicans because revolutionary sentiment is higher. This does not mean supporting Republicans is correct, as this alienates communists from the rest of the proletariat. I simply said the DNC is the more competent caretaker of the empire, and therefore any elevation of them over Republicans as somehow better for people is just sacrificing the victims of empire.
As for saying “voting for communists doesn’t do anything,” that’s also a lie. I said it advances revolutionary consciousness. If this is “nothing” for you, then you are in fact reformist over revolutionary, and therefore we can see your support of the DNC electorally through that lense, essentially you support the DNC because you think this is the best path to progress. This means you do support the genocidal imperialists, even if you’d rather they not commit genocide and imperialism.
I gave lots of evidence, see the Russian Revolution. Through participation in bourgeois elections, the Bolsheviks were able to expose the sham of liberal democracy in favor of soviet democracy. This allowed them to dissolve the provisional government and establish the Soviet government as the legitimate government.
So to sum up what you’ve said:
It’s better to have Republicans in office because that makes people want revolution. So you’re fine with what’s happening now with Trump and ICE murdering people and rights being stripped away and tech bros trying to take everything over, because that’ll make people want a revolution more, so the sacrifices of minorities are necessary. Even though you aren’t an accelerationist.
Communists don’t win elections but that’s somehow ok. If you don’t vote for them and vote for a Democrat then you’re in favor of genocide. Even though that is good when Republicans are in charge because that makes people want revolution more.
The system is terrible and needs to be torn down, but Democrats are so strong and competent that the system won’t get torn down if they are in charge. But voting for people who don’t win will somehow change that. Also Democrats suck and are weak and shitty.
You don’t have proof that refusing to vote has done anything productive in the US, something I specifically asked for. Even though that’s not what you’re advocating for, which is apparently to buy into the system and vote for communists. Even though they don’t win and you don’t want the system to exist and voting for people in the system means you’re pro genocide. You’ve got some historical evidence of having a different election in a different country with a different system doing something, but it doesn’t matter that it’s a completely different situation because you like Lenin.
So yeah, while you’re happy about what’s going on with the world, with Trump and Gaza and ICE and everything because it’ll get the people inspired for revolution that’ll happen Any Day Now, I’m not exactly cool with it and with people being thrown onto the grinder. I think the system could be dismantled even with Democrats in charge. I’ve made my stance pretty clear at this point about Democrats and my opinion of them, and what I think the course of action is.
So I’m going to give you some parting advice.
You want a revolution? You have to win the hearts of the people. You have to get them to want to join you. You have to make them feel welcomed. You have to make them feel heard. You have to make them feel empowered.
The way you and these other people commenting have been acting? People being insulting or saying that someone’s in favor of genocide? Not listening to people and their strategies or reasoning? Being willing to throw minorities under the bus on an assumption?
That’s not it fam. You’re giving your revolution a bad name.
You’re falling into one of the weak spots of the left, and that’s that you want only perfect allies. Only people who operate like you want. The Right doesn’t care that much as long as it’s someone “owning the libs”, they will use or take anyone (till they aren’t useful and throw them under the bus).
So maybe ease up a bit, maybe try to convince people of your position instead of condemning anyone who’s not as left as you, and if you want to try to convince people your way is best, get your story straight and maybe don’t go in attacking people who have a slightly different strategy than you. I’m on your side and want a worker’s revolution and you’ve been acting like I eat infants. That’s not exactly helping.
Oh and don’t keep trying to get the last word, I said I was done a few comments ago.
Nope, all strawman arguments.
You said organizing is easier under the DNC. I pointed out that this is factually false, which you take to mean I prefer the GOP outright.
You keep trying to pretend I said we shouldn’t vote. I said we should vote for communist parties. You keep denying this, though, believing the only utility of electoralism to be in getting the DNC into power.
Your point about keeping the DNC in power logically leads to accelerationism. Rather than actually engage with the points I brought, you proceeded to strawman the shit out of my points and then complain that I’m not a reformist. You claim I’ve brought no evidence despite bringing clear evidence, and yourself no counter-evidence.
Really not sure what you’re trying to accomplish. You disagree with revolutionary praxis as worthwhile, while also saying I’m doing revolutionary praxis wrong by not voting for the accelerationist party.