Where does slop start? If you use auto complete and it is just adding a semicolon or some braces, is it slop? Is producing character by character what you would have wrote yourself slop?
If you would have written it yourself the same way, why not write it yourself? (And there was autocomplete before the age of LLMs, anyway.)
The big problems start with situations where it doesn’t match what you would have written, but rather what somebody else has written, character by character.
To me, it starts at anything beyond correcting spelling for individual words or adding punctuation. I don’t even want it suggesting quick reply phrases.
Is producing character by character what you would have wrote yourself slop?
There’s the rub. When establishing laws and guidelines, every term must be explicitly defined. Lack of specificity in these definitions is where bad-faith actors hide their misdeeds by technically obeying the letter of the law due to its vagueness, while flagrantly violating its spirit.
Its why today, in the USA, corporations are legally people when its convenient, and not when its not, and the expenditure of money is governments protected “free speech”.
There is a certain brand of user (who may or may not be a human) who draws the venn of ‘AI slop’ and ‘AI output’ as a circle.
They’ve taken the extremist position that AI should be uninvented and any use of AI is the worst thing that could possibly happen to any project and they’ll have an entire grab bag of misinformation-based memes to shotgun at you. Engaging with these people is about as productive as trying to convince a vaccine denier that vaccines don’t cause autism.
I’m not saying that the user you replies to believes this, but the comment they wrote is indistinguishable from the comments of such a user.
e: I’d also like to point out that these users are very much attracted to low-effort activism. This is why you see comments like mind being heavily downvoted but not many actual replies. They want to try to influence the discussion but don’t have the capability or motivation to step into the ring, so to speak, and defend their opinions.
It’s extremist to take the fact that you CAN get plagiaristic output and to conclude that all other output is somehow tainted.
You personally CAN quote copyrighted music and screenplays. If you’re an artist then you also CAN produce copyright violating works. None of these facts taint any of the other things that you produce that are not copyright or plagiarized.
In this situation, and in the current legal environment, the responsibility to not produce illegal and unlicensed code is on the human. The fact that the tool that they use has the capability to break the law does not mean that everything generated by it is tainted.
Photoshop can be used to plagiarize and violate copyright too. It would be just as absurd to declare all images created with Photoshop are somehow suspect or unusable because of the capability of the tool to violate copyright laws.
The fact that AI can, when specifically prompted, produce memorized segments of the training data has essentially no legal weight in any of the cases where it has been argued. It is a fact that is of interest to scientists who study how AI represent knowledge internally and not any kind of foundation for a legal argument against the use of AI.
Sure, but if they can be demonstrated to ever plagiarize without attribution, and the default user behavior is to pencil-whip the output, which it is, then it becomes statistically certain that users are unwittingly plagiarizing other works.
Its like using a tool that usually bakes cookies, but every once in a great while, it knocks over the building its in. It almost never does that, though.
Plagiarism and copyright violation are two different things, one is ethical and the other is legal.
Copyright has a body of case law which helps determine when a work significantly infringes on the copyrighted work of another. Plagiarism has no body of law at all, it is an ethical construct and not a legal one.
You can plagiarize something that has no copyright protection and you can infringe on copyright protection without plagiarizing. They’re not interchangeable concepts.
In your example, some institutions would not allow such a device to operate on their property but it would not be illegal to operate and the liability would be on the person and not on the oven.
To further strain the metaphor, Linus is saying that you can use (possibly) exploding ovens, because he isn’t taking a moral stance on the topic, but you are responsible for the damages if they cause any because the legal systems require that this be the case.
I mean I don’t use copilot but a self hosted Claude at work for debugging and creating templates. I still run thru and test it. I’m only doing crossplane, kyverno, kubernetes infra things though and I started without it so I have an understanding. Now running their someone’s crossplane composition written in go and I asked them about this error and he just said get the AI to fix it was worrying since his last day is next week.
Its only slop if you accept slop. What i mean is that it cna and does generate perfectly fine code. It also generates code that is ok, but needs a human touch. It also generates verbose garbage.
Its only slop if you approve the slop. Its perfectly fine to let it generate the boilerplate of what you want, and tweak it. If its prompted well enough, you get less slop.
Ultimately I am with Linus on this one. The genie is out of the bottle. Use it responsibly.
“Yes to Copilot, no to AI slop”
Pick One
Where does slop start? If you use auto complete and it is just adding a semicolon or some braces, is it slop? Is producing character by character what you would have wrote yourself slop?
How about using it for debugging?
If you would have written it yourself the same way, why not write it yourself? (And there was autocomplete before the age of LLMs, anyway.)
The big problems start with situations where it doesn’t match what you would have written, but rather what somebody else has written, character by character.
To me, it starts at anything beyond correcting spelling for individual words or adding punctuation. I don’t even want it suggesting quick reply phrases.
Yes.
There’s the rub. When establishing laws and guidelines, every term must be explicitly defined. Lack of specificity in these definitions is where bad-faith actors hide their misdeeds by technically obeying the letter of the law due to its vagueness, while flagrantly violating its spirit.
Its why today, in the USA, corporations are legally people when its convenient, and not when its not, and the expenditure of money is governments protected “free speech”.
There is a certain brand of user (who may or may not be a human) who draws the venn of ‘AI slop’ and ‘AI output’ as a circle.
They’ve taken the extremist position that AI should be uninvented and any use of AI is the worst thing that could possibly happen to any project and they’ll have an entire grab bag of misinformation-based memes to shotgun at you. Engaging with these people is about as productive as trying to convince a vaccine denier that vaccines don’t cause autism.
I’m not saying that the user you replies to believes this, but the comment they wrote is indistinguishable from the comments of such a user.
e: I’d also like to point out that these users are very much attracted to low-effort activism. This is why you see comments like mind being heavily downvoted but not many actual replies. They want to try to influence the discussion but don’t have the capability or motivation to step into the ring, so to speak, and defend their opinions.
It’s less extremist if you look at how easily these LLMs will just plagiarize 1:1, apparently:
https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/38072#issuecomment-4105681567
Some see “AI slop” as “identified by the immediate problems of it that I can identify right away”.
Many others see “AI slop” as bringing many more problems beyond the immediate ones. Then seeing LLM output as anything but slop becomes difficult.
It’s extremist to take the fact that you CAN get plagiaristic output and to conclude that all other output is somehow tainted.
You personally CAN quote copyrighted music and screenplays. If you’re an artist then you also CAN produce copyright violating works. None of these facts taint any of the other things that you produce that are not copyright or plagiarized.
In this situation, and in the current legal environment, the responsibility to not produce illegal and unlicensed code is on the human. The fact that the tool that they use has the capability to break the law does not mean that everything generated by it is tainted.
Photoshop can be used to plagiarize and violate copyright too. It would be just as absurd to declare all images created with Photoshop are somehow suspect or unusable because of the capability of the tool to violate copyright laws.
The fact that AI can, when specifically prompted, produce memorized segments of the training data has essentially no legal weight in any of the cases where it has been argued. It is a fact that is of interest to scientists who study how AI represent knowledge internally and not any kind of foundation for a legal argument against the use of AI.
Sure, but if they can be demonstrated to ever plagiarize without attribution, and the default user behavior is to pencil-whip the output, which it is, then it becomes statistically certain that users are unwittingly plagiarizing other works.
Its like using a tool that usually bakes cookies, but every once in a great while, it knocks over the building its in. It almost never does that, though.
Plagiarism and copyright violation are two different things, one is ethical and the other is legal.
Copyright has a body of case law which helps determine when a work significantly infringes on the copyrighted work of another. Plagiarism has no body of law at all, it is an ethical construct and not a legal one.
You can plagiarize something that has no copyright protection and you can infringe on copyright protection without plagiarizing. They’re not interchangeable concepts.
In your example, some institutions would not allow such a device to operate on their property but it would not be illegal to operate and the liability would be on the person and not on the oven.
To further strain the metaphor, Linus is saying that you can use (possibly) exploding ovens, because he isn’t taking a moral stance on the topic, but you are responsible for the damages if they cause any because the legal systems require that this be the case.
I mean I don’t use copilot but a self hosted Claude at work for debugging and creating templates. I still run thru and test it. I’m only doing crossplane, kyverno, kubernetes infra things though and I started without it so I have an understanding. Now running their someone’s crossplane composition written in go and I asked them about this error and he just said get the AI to fix it was worrying since his last day is next week.
Its only slop if you accept slop. What i mean is that it cna and does generate perfectly fine code. It also generates code that is ok, but needs a human touch. It also generates verbose garbage.
Its only slop if you approve the slop. Its perfectly fine to let it generate the boilerplate of what you want, and tweak it. If its prompted well enough, you get less slop.
Ultimately I am with Linus on this one. The genie is out of the bottle. Use it responsibly.